Thursday, March 3, 2016

2016 Spring Break Discussion Page

The Blacklist returns on 4/7/16.

Take refuge from your Blacklist withdrawal symptoms with our 2016 Spring Break Discussion page. Five more weeks of Blacklist Winter with no Red stories, Liz drama, various cast members in tank tops, or Aram saving the entire world. We can get through this together. 


Discuss the reruns, Season 3, your theories and predictions, how you are making it through, or anything your Blacklist heart desires. (Spoilers still stay on the Spoiler page!)

319 comments:

1 – 200 of 319   Newer›   Newest»
Tabasko said...

Welcome! Looking forward to seeing what people think about what has happened, what might happen, and how you are spending your break.

Charmed said...

Lake Girl,

Notice wooden items to the far left side of of the header photo...

We have had so many wonderful conversations since the last episode. Let's continue the trend!

L Johns said...

Does anyone know if there is a rerun on tonight? TV Guide says it is a Blindspot episode, but NBC lists a Blacklist episode.

Honey West said...

Hi L Johns, I am pretty sure it's a Blindspot episode as that's what Directv's guide says.

L Johns said...

@Honey West. Thank you! I hope they do show some reruns during the time off.

Charmed said...

Welcome L Johns
Hi Honey West

How about a little of both? I believe it is a rerun of Blindspot.

One Paul said...

Lol, that's what I feel like, just sittin' on the bench.

I think I will check out Blindspot tonight.

Inspired by some conversation on the Caretaker page, I'm going all the way back to watch the episodes where Liz's mother and Red saying he knew her as Katerina Rostova, one of her many names, first came up. Then I will try and rewatch Season 3. That should be plenty.

I can't decide if I think she's alive or not today. I don't think you can say yet. But I agree with those that said that with Liz saying, who else would it be looking for her, that it will be someone else who left that picture in Prague. Whether or not Velov is telling the truth.

I think Gina had to call either Red or The Major, someone who would have a vested interest in what Tom's intentions are.

Other than that, I will be working in my winter-destroyed yard, finishing teaching my dog to eat with a fork, and working on my Dwight Eisenhower impression. Normal stuff.

Honey West said...

LOL! One Paul #7. Will you be posting that Eisenhower impression on YouTube or anywhere?

As expected, James Spader is scheduled to be making at least one talk show appearance before the end of the Spring Break. Friday, March 25th, The TODAY Show.

Rori said...

So, because this is our SUPPORT GROUP, I am here to confess that my March hiatus BL replacement viewing (at least tonight) is...drumroll...

Tudor Monastery Farm. Yup! Just like the Blacklist...but with more oxen and chanting.
LOL...it kinda just made me laugh that that's where I went in my BL withdrawal. Kind of a pallet cleanser, perhaps. :-)

JBiltz said...

My cable guide is showing a rerun next week but not which one. I had to replace my DVR a couple of weeks ago and lost a lot of stuff including season 5 of Game of Thrones. TV is pretty thin right now. I do enjoy Blindspot, that had a 8 week hiatus. Ran ten episodes and stopped until Monday. I think Blacklist got it right this time. 8 episodes, stop for a month, 8 more, stop for a month and then finish it off. That is pretty civilized.

A bunch of cable shows start up next month. I don't know how many of you have watched Penny Dreadful but its really good.

JBiltz said...

I rewatched all of Season 3 and I must say this was the best season so far. There really were not any duds in there. Some were of course better than others but there was no "Judge" episodes.

I would also say going into the back 6 I don't really know what is going to happen. The Cabal seems likely but they could just as easily let it go for another season with the cease fire established. Katerina Restova is coming but I'd guess that is going to be a last episode/next season cliffhanger story. I also think Liz has a sibling, probably a brother to mirror Samar and her brother story. But there is of course no evidence of that. But a brother would certainly meet the "It just gets worse" line.

Tabasko said...

Rori #9: I wasn't done laughing at One Paul's post, but then I got to yours!! "Tudor Monastery Farm!" Ha!!! I did watch "Victorian Farm' myself. I have to say it's City Life for me. I would do badly there.

Honey West #8: Oh, thanks! We will need to be on the lookout for those, Maybe he will have a good clip this time again.

One Paul #7: Hahahaha! Way to choose a low-competition impression! Good points, by the way.

L Johns #5: Welcome to BSG! My Verizon FIOS guide also says a Blindspot rerun of Season 1, Episode 11. It also does show a rerun of TBL for next week, episode not specified. Please stop back!

Charmed #2: You spotted the anti-vampire stakes! You are sharp!

JBiltz #10: I hate that when the box goes and you lose all your DVR'd stuff. I have not seen "Penny Dreadful" but I have heard good things.

Rori said...

... Back to BL commentary ...

I had a total "AHA!" moment when Honey West #36 ("Caretaker" discussion page) said...

"Tom tried to explain it [going to work for Berlin] as being the only way he could be protected from Red ... Tom further compounded things when he then up and married Liz. That is what really protected him."

There is a person in my household who is convinced that Tom is an utter, unchangeable sociopath. "People like Tom never change" (Red). If that's true, then not only was marrying Liz a way to remain safe from Reddington then, it's a way now, a way of self-protection. (Not saying I agree with that, but I can totally see that as a possibility)

Tom is a character not unlike "La Femme Nakita," who was trained and TRAPPED in the role they trained her for. There is no escaping the Major for Tom (and it's him, I believe, whom Gina was calling at the end of this episode).

I also realized that Red must also fear for Lizzie, because the Major, Tom's "creator," is an evil dude who cannot want Tom involved with Liz. Red might fear that the Major would come after her or them to stop them from marrying for realz this time.

As EASTCOAST has said, "He [the Major] hates Liz for giving Tom feelings."
Their relationship is ruining the Major's "product"!

AND, if we think back to the Alistair Pitt episode, this connection of 2 crime syndicates is this marriage that would bind the Major's "son" with Reddington's "daughter"--which is simply intolerable to both orgs!

Liz may get cold feet again...Tom could get killed/kidnapped by Gina/the Major again...Red could contrive some new blockade, but somehow I am doubtful that "Happily ever after" is a possibility for them.


DZ731 said...

One Paul - Just how long have you been teaching this dog to eat with a forK? And are you a fan of Dwight Eisenhower? You are definitely funny!

Rori - What in the world is Tudor Monastery Farm? Is it a cable show?

I don't have too many replacement shows. I am looking forward to the return of Orphan Black.

Honey West said...

Good points about all of that, Rori #13. Maybe that is why Tom really wants to get married to Liz again after all.

I have to say, though, after reading your post I cannot get "Space Oddity" out of my head! LOL!

JBiltz said...

I've got:
Dancing With the Stars 3/21
Banshee 4/1
River Monsters 4/7
Orphan Black 4/14
Game of Thrones 4/24
Penney Dreadful 5/1

That is twice the shows I am watching now.

Lake Girl said...

Charmed "2, I completely missed those!
Hi L Johns, welcome :)
Honey West, thanks for the info. Put it on my calendar :)
Rori #9, never heard of Tudor Monastery Farm. Unlike Tabasko, I prefer the country over the city. And like One Paul, my poor yard and flower beds need some TLC. Next week is supposed to be warm, so the family and I will be hard at work (& play) outside. Yeah!!! Hopefully the weather will stay nice, no more blasts of cold and snow.

Rori said...


DZ731 #14: Tudor Monastery Farm

It's a BBC show (on You Tube now) where modern people live on a Tudor-era (year about 1500) farm, run by the Benedictines, and learn to do all those ole' timey things like making pottage and plowing with oxen...

I, too, however,await Orphan Black excitedly ... once I watch Edwardian Farm and Victorian Farm (LOL!) Thanks, Tabasko, for alerting me to the other one(s).

Eastcoast said...

#2charmed, what photo with wooden things? ( been playing on my instagram account)lol
I'm working on some more BL jokes.
Oh, the thing in her hand , could it posinly be a gun? It







Iowa Watcher said...

I'm watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D, Season 2. I'm on disc 2.

There are worse ways to get through times of no Blacklist . . .

Yes, outdoor work starts this weekend here, too. My raised beds are a mess, and there's several hours of pruning. I may just rent a chain saw and clear cut the back half of my lot. It's got a bunch of stupid soft trees with the 3/4s inch trunks -- cottonwood? Annoying, anyway.

Tabasko said...

Well, I can see we will all be able to entertain ourselves just fine!!

Rori #13: Well, I can certainly see Red's worry for Liz when you look at the recent events. No matter who set up the diamond thing, Tom did go into it and connect back up with Gina. I think he also kind of fibbed to Liz there, telling her about his day in the last episode.

I do think Tom thinks he can change, but he is pinning it too much to Liz and maybe not seeing himself in reality, or even knowing who he is for sure.

Rori #18: Yep, there are a whole list of BBC farm shows, LOL!

Eastcoast #19: Forgive us our jokes, again. Lake Girl made a joke about Katerina being both dead and alive, a vampire perhaps, and Charmed noticed there is someone off camera in the pic above carrying wooden stakes. We are silly here sometimes!

Iowa Watcher #20: Good luck! It snowed again overnight here. I can wait another week! Enjoy SHIELD. It just got renewed a day or two ago for next year. I really like Clark Gregg's Coulson. He's the reason I started watching it.



Charmed said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Charmed said...

Where in the world is...Ines and deadskie13, among others?
I hope Real Life is treating y'all well.

One Paul,
I would also love to see your Dwight Eisenhower impersonation. Interesting choice. Thanks for your continued entertainment on BSG!
Let us know how you like Blindspot, please.

JBiltz,
I'm sorry about your deleted videos too. It's bad enough when only one show doesn't record for some reason.
I also heard Penny Dreadful was good, but it's unavailable to me.

I'm looking forward to The Catch premiering March 24tn.

Charmed said...

Everyone,
Go to the HOME page, please!

Alert for new discussion during the hiatus, for those that don't know it yet.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

If you've got PVR storage of Blacklist you're very lucky. I've got most of them but am moving soon and switching providers so I'll lose my eps. Only other series in same league as BL is Person of Interest on CBS. Its so good CBS is driving it into the ocean - it makes every series on that network look like crap.

If you love Blacklist about 75% of you will love Person of Interest. . . approx. 100 episodes over 5 years. The last 13 eps are being held back by CBS to use as a summer replacement series.

One Paul said...

Honey West #8: Perhaps! My YouTube career could be just around the corner! LOL!!!

Tabasko #12: That is correct. My plan is no one will do it but me, and who is going to know if my impression is good? Not many.

Rori #13: I had a comment for you, but now there is a spoiler on the spoiler page, so never mind, I will comment over there when I have another minute.

Anyway "happily ever after" for them- probably not!

Lake GIrl #17: I am a city guy, too, but I do have a yard. There is a lot or random junk embedded form snow plows and whatnot. Yucko.

Charmed #23: Thanks, lol. I am glad to be good for something! I liked Blindspot well enough. I have to say the premise weirded me out, a naked woman in a duffle bag when the show started......and It was not the first episode, so I was confused, but I may watch more. The woman is pretty strong as a character.

Big Bad Bazzer #25: Good name! I had all of season 3 DVRed but my SO claimed I was hogging the space. I liked Person of Interest until something happened I can't say for spoiler reasons, but it is good!

One Paul said...

On the show, I do like Season 3. I think the episodes since the return from the holiday break have been better than the ones before, although I liked "Marvin Gerard" tremendously. I really prefer the ones with Spader and the more veteran actors, like The Decembrist and the Berlin episodes.

Some of the lines before the first break weren't my faves, but I find this season making tons of parallels to previous themes, images and ideas very well done.

I worry about the longevity of Tom. And what they are going to do with Liz's baby. I don't know if I like a kidnapping plot. There will always be some drama or another about it that might be distracting.

Charmed said...

Big Bad Bazzer #25 and
#60 on The Caretaker page

Welcome. I agree with you, The Blacklist is a great series. We are big fans of Baz!

Tabasko and I are the moderators for this wonderful, friendly group.
Please read the Frequently Asked Questions / FAQ page. No Spoilers on the normal discussion pages please, as a courtesy to those posters that don't want to see Spoilers. Nope, Tabasko and I are not one of those people! :))

If you have any questions, please let either of us know. There are also other posters willing and able to jump in to help.

Charmed said...

I have more to comment on, but I'm down to 2% battery life.
Tomorrow is a new day, so I'm out of here for the night!

BL Mom said...

Hi, Everyone!

Thanks for making a Spring page! This is nice.

I am leaving tomorrow for a trip to London with a group. I have never been out of North America, so I am pretty excited! Anyways, it will help kill off some of my Blacklist withdrawal, some.

Charmed #23, Yes, where are Ines and deadskie13? Stop by soon!

Big Bad Bazzer, I agree, cool name! I think that started when I was watching something else the same time, but it seems to be in syndication on one of my channels already. I have watched a few, and it seems good. Thanks for the recommendation.

One Paul #27, I agree with you here. I have liked Season 3. Those 2 episodes before the winter break were not my top ones, but the ones from The Director on have been good. I think they are balancing the stories well without overdoing it on the Blacklister and balancing out the time on the different threads pretty well.

I am wondering, too, about how they handle Baby Keen without too much melodrama. The only thing I can think is that someone will pop up to take the baby, but not someone in a kidnapping vein! There has seen so much of that!

I am thinking these last 6 will be pretty intense.

Charmed #29, I hope you recharged!

Charmed said...

BL Mom #30

What! You are going to London and you're just telling us now?
What were you more afraid of, since you didn't tell us sooner:
a) We would send you a list?
b) We would want to come with you?

I am so excited for you. I've never been much of anywhere and certainly not out of the country.

I hope you have a wonderful time!
Please check in with us when you can.
Plus thank you, you know we worry when our friends disappear...

BL Mom said...

Charmed #31, hahaha. I'll take a list, depending what's on it! And anyone who wants to come can join!

The trip snuck up on me and I'm nervous I have messed up my luggage tags, size, contents, hair dryer wattage and a host of other things. Aahh!

I think I will still be able to read email and get online. I hope! Even dealing with the phone required a bit of effort. Maybe I should just stay home and watch BBC!

Tabasko said...

Big Bad Bazzer #25: Welcome. Good name, I agree!

You know, I had the same provider for FIOS when I moved last year and I was able to take the box with me! I only went 2 blocks, though.

One Paul #27: I pretty much agree on your episode assessment. I have liked Season 3 alot, with some moments I could have left off. But you'll have that!

I have no idea what the next thing to do for the show will be re: Liz's baby. I cannot imagine another kidnapping myself, especially of a baby. Plus it doesn't keep the baby out of the action, it puts it right in. It probably would be best to send the baby off. Maybe Liz will reconsider adoption if she finds out what has been up with Tom.

Honey West said...

Oh BL Mom, you will have a nice time in London! I was there for the day a year and a half ago on my way home from the Baltic cruise. I went there several times in the 70's and 90's and it has sure changed since then! Wow! Took the Buckingham Palace tour this last time since the Queen was gone to Scotland and it was open for tours. I don't know if that's possible this time of the year, but it was worth it just to see her collection of fine art. Don't forget a travel umbrella. They have a lot of guided walking tours and I highly recommend those if you have time. I did two Beatles Tours back in the 90's. They were fun. They also have Jack the Ripper and lots of others.

Just have a great time!

Tabasko said...

BL Mom #30: Go and have fun!!!! I have been a few places overseas, but not to London yet.

Enjoy and let us know what all the fun things you get to do.

Lake Girl said...

One Paul, I understand completely about the snow plows! We live in the burbs, and the plows destroy the curbs and edges of our yard!
BL Mom, your trip sounds so exciting ! :) I've been to Canada and the Bahamas, that's it.

BL Mom said...

Thanks, everyone! I will be back soon.

Lake Girl #36, I have been to the Canada side of Niagara Falls and Cancun. A lots of places up and down the US coast. That is it!

Charmed said...

One Paul and Lake Girl,

What are Snow plows?

:))

Lurking BLFan said...

I'm still lurking, but wanted to share how much I am enjoying this blog - it's comforting to see that I am not the only one theorizing between episodes. This is the first TV program that has captured me in years (BBC Sherlock doesn't count), and I was beginning to feel a little odd. :)

deadskie13 said...

One Paul #7: Nice theories--and hobbies. ^-^

JBiltz #10: I'm a bit behind, but I did enjoy the first season of Penny Dreadful lots.

Rori #13: Nice points about Tom's possible motives! I agree there's something definitely not quite right about him, despite his best intentions.

Iowa Watcher #20: SHEILD is a fantastic distraction. :)

Tabasko #21: I agree--Tom is definitely pinning too many things on Liz; he'd have a much better chance if he gave it a go at figuring out who he is, first. Haha! I wonder if that makes Red Van Helsing. ;) Agent Coulson is my go-to name for reservations. ^-^ Also! There were so many amazing comments from last week that its be impossible to catch up on everything--but yes! I read The Blacklist comic and am eagerly waiting issue 7. :D

Charmed #23: Long story short, there's a small crisis at work and I've been putting in extra hours. And then I contracted The Plague. :/ But in the midst of it all, I made an appointment for a couple of tattoos at the start of next month. And so things are moving right along. ^-^ I hope Ines and everyone else missing are doing well!

Big Bad Bazzer #25: Hello! And welcome! :D I gave Person of Interest a go, but couldn't get into it. I think I would have liked it much better if I'd started watching it before The Blacklist. I did like the character Finch, though. ^-^

BL Mom #30: Safe travels! Enjoy your trip! :D

Tabasko said...

Charmed #38: LOL. One of us will put up a screencap of a snow plow and a snowblower for you. ;-)

Lurking BLFan #39: Hello! It is nice to know our lurkers are out there, so thanks! We all feel the same way, so you fit right in. We were all lurkers once. Feel welcome to let us know your thoughts.

deadskie13 #40: Yay, nice to see you! I am sorry work has been busy, and you have "The Plague" now. We have been a sick bunch here. Feel better soon.

We had great comments last week, I agree! We do have a page for the Comic, so maybe we can wander over there, those of us reading it in our spare time.

Agent Coulson, haha. Well, if I hear someone paging him in a restaurant, I will know it's you! Thanks for your great comments, as usual.

Kodiak said...

Hi, guys!

How is everyone? I caught up on the posts on various pages.

Lol-ing about Dwight Eisenhower impressions and snow plows and E-Cig Man.

Did anyone ever come to a conclusion on when Velov said he was tracking Katerina? Was it recently or years ago when he was with Spetsnaz? Just wondering if I missed some thoughts.

That's it for now!

Honey West said...

It's raining out here in California! Been raining all day! Lots of rain! Yippee!

Snow plows? It snows about once a decade here and when it does everyone runs outside and watches it and it gets all over the news. Yet, an hour and a half up the hill from here they are expecting 2-4 feet of snow overnight tonight.

Okay, back to BL. Kodiak #42, I think it was awhile ago. I have no idea why I think that. But I am guessing the 1990's, sometime after Red "disappeared".

DZ731 said...

Kodiak - My take on when Velov was tracking Katarina to Prague was that it was shortly after the time she supposedly committed suicide.

One Paul said...

Honey West & DZ731 thanks! Ok I have 2 follow up questions then.

I thought that same as you 2. But then Tab made a comment on the other page and when I watched Caretaker a 2nd time, I wonder why Liz says someone is looking for her, like in the now sense? Is there something I'm forgetting that would make her think that now? Is she assuming the same person is still looking?

And second, how/why does Velov hold onto that picture so long if it was back then?

I'm still suspicious and it is bugging me.

Kodiak said...

Somehow I got One Paul in my comment?????

That's just me. That's weird.

Honey West said...

That's weird, Kodiak! Are you in disguise as One Paul?
I still think the whole Velov-tracking-KR thing is fraudulent. Or at least fishy. Whoever is behind it gave him the photo, probably recently. Just guessing, of course.

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #66 on The Caretaker page:
Eastcoast said..."I looked at several episodes today starting with the major through Leonard Caul. Watched Caul twice! Love that one. The things I am certain of is the Major really hates her!!! I am certain Red knows this and I'm sure Gina does too.I also noticed that the outfit she is wearing in the painting looks like the same one she was wearing in Leonard Caul when she was at the Flat with flat cat, and when she saw the director. "

I love "Leonard Caul", too. The episode and the character. Come back, Leonard! I agree The Major is likely not happy with Liz. She basically cost him his whole investment into "Jacob" although that was not a good thing to do to someone in the first place. Perhaps The Major is behind the heist and did try to kill Tom through Gina and failed. Now there could be a plan to do more damage.

That is interesting about the outfit. Thanks!

Kodiak #47: Glad you stopped by, as always! Are you doing an impression of One Paul doing an impression of Eisenhower down there in #45? Sorry that happened. It has happened a couple of times. I think it might be an Autofill or Autocorrect thing.

Kodiak, Honey West, DZ731 #42-#47: Yeah, I thought that, too, that Velov meant he was tracking Katarina as part of Spetznaz or something years ago. Spetsnaz has continued through the various spy/intelligence formations in Russia. But I did ask that question, why did Liz assume someone was looking for her now, the same person who was looking for her possibly up to 26 years ago? And right, Kodiak, why would Velov just save a picture like that for so long if that is the case? Good catch.

There are a bunch of odd things in that story of Velov's.

And I still want to know what was in that Glasnost file!

Tabasko said...

One Paul #27: I forgot to say yesterday that I also find all the parallels or possible parallels in Season 3 very interesting.

I wouldn't mind trying to think through all of them, but there have been a few that seem reminiscent of the night of the fire, the one in "Marvin Gerard" where Liz pulls the gun on Red which reminded many of us of her holding the gun the night of the fire, the idea of misinformation being put out on people that seems very convincing in "The Troll Farmer" (a possible parallel to misinformation floating around about Red turning on the US with seeming proof.)

I may try to list these off for fun in our break, or if anyone wants to list any they remember, that would be great. : )

DZ731 said...

Velov could have had some old case files, including Katarina's.

Tabasko said...

DZ731 #50: True. Good idea.

Eastcoast said...

Tabasko,that is also the episode that the director said she looked like her mother. I just thought that was interesting.

eastcoast said...


ok folks, That picture of Liz as a little girl was bugging me, very familiar. so I went back to season 1 and that pic Liz got from Velov is the same pic that was on Toms wall. Up on the left side. I know they often come in doubles, but I found it odd that Tom had it and Velov had it.
( but we know he burned his copy )

One Paul said...

Eastcoast #53
That is a good one! I thought that picture seemed familiar so I looked back at some,Sam had and Red had. I did not think of that.

Tom had to take that from somewhere. I've always figured he lifted that from Liz's personal stuff. So someone else had the same picture.

Kodiak, lol, don't identity thief me!

Charmed said...

One Paul #54

But you couldn't have a better, more honest identity thief. Plus you're both great comedians. :))

Welcome BL Lurking Fan!

deadskie13, I'm glad to see you back. I hope you made enough to pay for your meds with those extra hours.

I hope everyone is feeling much better today.

JBiltz said...

That is a real picture of Megan Boone as a child. So its the kind of thing that a set decorator might use and have no importance. I'm not saying that is the case but It could be. Interesting though. If Tom knew about KR then he has been holding back.

Eastcoast said...

I had read it was a real pic of her.
Tom did have a lot pics. And I remember last year in a short video just before one of the episodes one of the writers were saying that Tom had discovered something very important. Something he had put together and he didn't want Liz to find out. I think it began with them talking about Ivan, and it showed clips of him and Jolene looking at the wall and Liz when she was in the warehouse and he had to burn that stuff up. I need to find that again.

Eastcoast said...

And maybe the bad guys have been looking for her for a long time and thsts the only pic they had to find her. Would explain Red goi,g to such extremes to hide her. Still don't know why her middle name is Scott?

Eastcoast said...

Tom also had a pic of the house that Red blew up on there. Maybe he's a triple agent! Lol

Charmed said...

Eastcoast,

I remember that Liz's middle name is Scott and we kicked ideas around a lot, but I don't remember it being mentioned again.
You have some good ideas. Keep investigating!
I agree with you and Tabasko about Leonard Caul. Now I need to watch it again.

Here's some more questions in line with what everyone has been discussing:
Is this old guy Velov running a long con on Liz to maneuver her away from Red? Could he possibly be trying to draw a living KR out into the open or someone else entirely?

How long has someone been searching for Liz? Possibly before she was splashed over the news? Why were the Russians so quick to want her dead? Do you think the wedding day might be interrupted by anyone other than Soloman, Gina or the Major?

deadskie13 said...

(I could be wrong, but I thought Scott was Sam's last name? So it's not so much her middle name, as her adoptive Pop's last name. I want to say I saw it somewhere when she was figuring out the Berlin timeline, and pulled the papers on him that Red had given her from Tom's reports to Berlin.)

Charmed said...

deadskie13 #60

Sam's last name was actually Milhoan. So I don't know if Scott was her adopted middle name or how TPTB would explain it. But I always thought it was interesting. Of course, Sam and Red wouldn't want her to have a traceable name back to her birth family.

It's easy to see why you would think Sam's name was Scott. I think Scott has been mentioned more often and she uses it like some would a maiden name. What do y'all think?

Charmed said...

One Paul #26

You said:
"I liked Blindspot well enough. I have to say the premise weirded me out, a naked woman in a duffle bag when the show started......and It was not the first episode, so I was confused, but I may watch more. The woman is pretty strong as a character."

I loved your description of Blindspot's premise. Me too! Jaime Alexander is a very good actress and I'm glad her character is written to be strong and exceedingly smart. It couldn't have worked any other way. If only I had some of her skills. Practicing with a duffle bag is probably out though. :D

Charmed said...

What about the Shades of Blue series? Jennifer Lopez is very good, as is the whole cast. But Ray Liotta, with that kinda charging bull, bow-legged walk Kills it!

Shades of Blue has been renewed for Season 2.

Charmed said...

I forgot to add to my post above that Shades of Blue is not at all like TBL. The story is not as good or strong as the actor's abilities.
Maybe next season.

Tabasko said...

Charmed #62: Yes you are right. Milhoan is on Sam's hospital records and possibly one other place I can't recall right now, but I know I will. And the show lists him Sam Milhoan on everything .

Scott has been given by Liz a couple times. The way she says it sounds like she means it as a middle name to me.

But it has never been definitively answered. The last time I recall it was when she was testifying to Judge Denner.

So much good stuff today and last night. Hoping to get freed up to comment more here. :)

JBiltz said...

I've been watching Blindspot all season and its pretty good. Jaimie Alexander is really good in it. The shows move pretty good and there is a big overarching plot going on.

One Paul said...

Me, too! I hate Mondays. Too busy.

Charmed, good questions. I will be back to answer soon.

DZ731 said...

As far as Elizabeth Keen knew when the Blacklist started, her adoptive father's name was Sam Scott, and she was raised as Elizabeth Keen. She only discovered his real name was Sam Milhoan when she found the FBI file on him.

deadskie13 said...

Haha! Then maybe Elizabeth-Masha-Scott-Keen-Rostova-whatever-else-she-may-be, does belong with Tom-Jacob-Matt-etc...Just because she's the only person who can give his name a run for its money. ^-^

Tabasko said...

Oooh. sorry guys. But Sam Scott was never used on the show. People assumed, with good reason, that Sam's last name was Scott after Liz gave Elizabeth Scott Keen a her full name, but we have no idea what the Scott part means.

But in files, FBI and hospital, and the show credits. it lists Sam Milhoan. Liz did not have any reaction on seeing it printed, so I don't think one can assume she learned anything there.

DZ731. she on; became Elizabeth Keen when she married Tom. Her annulment lawyer even asked if she wanted to drop Keen after the annulment and she said no.

It is unknown what she was raised as. It's never been stated or shown. But it wasn't Elizabeth Keen.

Scott could have been told to her by Sam it was her last name. It could be her middle name. I know a few people who have last names or important family names as middle names, even masculine-sounding ones for a woman. Or it could be some alias of Sam's, but it was not on his Identification, so it's unlikely he was Sam Scott.

How Liz was raised, name-wise, is unknown at this time. Sam's name was definitely Milhoan.

Tabasko said...

deadskie13 #70: LOL.

JBiltz #67: Thanks for the recommendation. Also, good avatar.

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #57: I don't remember that about the video saying Tom had discovered something. Those videos before the episodes usually recap the previous action. Please let us know if you remember the particulars. Around that time, Tom was figuring out Liz found out he wasn't who he said he was. I don't remember anything about that coming up. Hmmm.

Eastcoast #58, 59: A few people here have had that thought about people probably looking for Liz for awhile. It seems very likely to me, as of course it seemed there were other men with Katarina the night of the fire. And Luther Braxton knew about a girl and a fire way back in his episodes, well before Liz had approached the Director on the Fulcrum.

I also do not remember seeing Tom have a pic of the house Red blew up. Where was that?

And no, we don't know why her middle name is Scott. I wonder if we will! There are a couple answers on that by Charmed and I below. It is an unknown right not.

Charmed said...

Tabasko #71

Sorry guys. I'm with Tabs on this one 100%.
But I can be bought! :D

Tabasko said...

Charmed #60: Good questions!

I have major doubts about Anton Velov. He could be doing something on his own or being put up to it by someone. I can see the letter better now again, and it looks like he says he actually knew KR in it. "I knew the woman", which is opposite of his previous stories. I have to look at it again and hopefully make clear screenshots.

For some reason, it has left Liz with this idea her happy mother has been looking for her. I thought all the way back in the fire memories that the mother didn't come off well. Maybe the father who took Liz away and couldn't handle The Cold War was really disturbed by Katarina's actions. Maybe not her actions to Liz, but in general.

deadskie13 #61: I only recall seeing "Milhoan" on anything Tom had. If anyone can give an episode where it in shown differently and an approximate time, I will take a look.

Charmed #63-65: LOL. How much could fitting in a duffle bag be useful??? But she has other skills I envy.

I am too busy discussing TBL to have watched Shades of Blue, lol. Probably not what NBC wants to know. I do like Ray Liotta, though!

eastcoast said...

I remember Braxton saying he had 'heard the stories about the girl'. I am thinking Those stories had to come from those men who left. So maybe since she Knew she was adopted they gave her the name Scott so she was harder to trace.

I found the link after much searching!!! I have been waiting for a long time for the writers to expound on this but they really have not.

http://www.nbc.com/the-blacklist/video/beyond-the-blacklist-episode-17/2763853

Let me know what you got out of all that after watching it.

eastcoast said...

did anyone find the Canadian promo yet?

deadskie13 said...

Tabasko: Oh, it's entirely possible I just thought it made sense that Scott was Sam's last name, so I didn't question it. ^-^ But that's what's great about this place--between everyone, nothing is ever really missed. So thanks! :D I guess a plausible explanation could be that at some point in time Sam (and Liz) changed his last name, which is why their criminal records never popped up. So Milhoan and Scott could both be correct; a small bit of Red tampering, I imagine. But that's just a shot in the dark, and nothing more.

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #76:First paragraph, completely agree.

Ah, Beyond The Blacklist!!! Man, I miss those. That is really interesting. I don't think that was ever made clear, what Tom discovered. I will think on that and hopefully others will have thoughts on that. Good find.

#77: No Global TV promo has appeared yet. If it shows up, it will go in the Spoiler page.

deadskie13 #78: For certain! Maybe someday we will learn about where Scott came from. :)) a Glad you're hanging out today!

deadskie13 said...

Tabasko: Despite feeling a lot better, I lost my voice. And so I was walking around with a Magna Doodle to communicate with. I'm mostly a behind-the-scenes person, and I'm not much of a talker to start with, so I figured it wouldn't be a big deal. But apparently I looked pitiful enough to be pushed out the door. What better way to spend extra time off, than partaking in Blacklist stuffs? :D

Charmed said...

deadskie13

I'm sure we have missed plenty of stuff, small stuff, maybe. But you know what they say about small stuff...

I think the difference is how we go about our discussions. We like to talk about things and if it comes back up, well, we will just talk about it again. Everyone adds so many elements to our viewing pleasure.

eastcoast said...

I also do not know if it has been discussed or not...

1, the fact that Masha was put in that closet and told to stay there by her dad had me wondering about her mom. She could hear her mom yelling for her but she didn't come out when she was yelling for her at first.

2, she apparently came out at some point and shot her dad??

3, but when the fire is started she is in the closet again and its not her mom trying to rescue her?
if there were her mom and 3 men there looking for the fulcrum, they all leave and then she says her dad who she shot took her out of the fire. were they all just going to leave the two of them to burn? what kind of mother would do that even if the kid had shot someone you loved she is still just a little kid.


Tabasko said...

Oh , deadskie13 #80: I am sorry to hear that! That is a funny little image, you walking around with a Magna Doodle! I am sorry you had to, I guess, be "convinced" to get some rest, but it is probably better for you in the long run. Whatever the reason, happy you are here!

Charmed #81: Truth! : )

eastcoast #82: Yes, I agree on those points about Liz's mom. Those things have come up before, sure, but are very interesting to look at again in light of how much she is making it into the story these days.

In light of some of these things, I am still wondering if Red came by his info about Liz's mom's feelings about Baby Masha/Liz directly. Another thing that does not quite match up.

Lake Girl said...

Deadskie13 #80, Glad you are feeling better :) Hope you get your voice back soon. In the meantime, enjoy that extra time off!
Charmed #81, Couldn't agree more :D
Eastcoast #82, wish we had a clearer idea of what happened that night! I think Liz's memories are a bit jumbled. (Understandably) How's this: her father hides her from her mom and the other men in the closet. She doesn't come out when her mom calls for her, but comes out later when she hears her parents fighting. She sees the gun, picks it up, and fires. Terrified, she runs back to hide in the closet. She is terrified because it was not her father she was aiming for, but her mother!
Not sure who started the fire or why, but it was started before Masha was found. I think Red was there that night (but not with Katarina). I believe he was the man who pulled Masha from the fire.

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #84: Interesting idea. That goes together well. I am with you all the way there except for when Liz says the man was hurting the woman when she remembered things in "Tom Connolly" But who knows, she could still have been aiming for her mom. At 4, you probably don't mean to kill anyone. (I hope)

Dr. Orchard's statement to Liz is so ambiguous: "The people and the events may have been there, but in different roles." She uses "may" not definitely were. Sure makes it difficult to interpret! But it gives the writers tons of room to work with.

Anyway, I also bend toward the idea Red saved Liz from the fire. I have always thought that. It's more of a hunch based on some spread-out statements and scenes more than anything one could prove. But if there were different roles that night, my guess would be that Red saved Liz form the fire, not her father, and his unknown-origin burn marks came from that.

From "Berlin, Conclusion"
Liz: "The only memory I have of my real father... is from the night of the fire. I remember him pulling me out of the flames... saving me."
Red: "Yes."

It is unclear there what he is saying yes to, It could be he was just agreeing with Liz that what she is saying indeed the only memory she has left, without commenting on the accuracy.

Just ideas.

One Paul said...

Charmed #55
Haha! I am glad Kodiak eve wants to be connected with me.

Charmed #60
I think Velov, after reading through everything, is not entirely trustworthy. Actually maybe not at all. It seems there has been this idea floating that Liz thinks her mother may not have been that bad. That alone makes me doubt it, lol. My one thought has been KR had no idea where Liz was this whole time and found out when Liz hit the news. Then she watched Liz with that RAT thing and sent the painting to Red. Maybe she has influenced Velov.

But I also agree with Tabs and eastcoast that it seems someone else already knew about Liz. Actually, that is very clear to me.

I think The Major shows up at the wedding.

One Paul said...

Charmed #63
LOL. Think of how you could sneak around, though.

Tabasko #71
Yes, youre right on all that.

deadskie13 #80: Lol. Too funny! Maybe an Etch-A-Sketch next time!

eastcoast, Tabs, Lake Girl
Very interesting comments, folks! Liz's mom seems suspicious to me. And I agree Red could easily be the one who rescued her. It fits in so many ways.

Tabasko said..."wondering if Red came by his info about Liz's mom's feelings about Baby Masha/Liz directly. Another thing that does not quite match up."

Yes, I am as well.

DZ731 said...

Tabasko and Charmed - What I wrote about the Scotts, I think I read on the Blacklist Wiki a couple of years ago. It just stuck in my mind. Sorry if the info was incorrect. I haven't looked at screencaps of Sam's hospital records, and in General Ludd on IMBD the actor is just credited as "Sam" - no last name. Personally, I think the writers throwing the Scott name in there just confuses things. And I've always wanted to know what was in that file Liz read about Sam Milhoan. Also I'd love to see some flashbacks with the actor who played Sam. I really liked him in the role.

Tabasko said...

DZ731 #88: Hey, no worries. : )) Some of that WIkia stuff is really good and some of it is off. I have seen that on there myself. U am sure you are right, they picked Scott purposefully! You can't tell what it is for sure.

We were hoping in our discussions before S2 started we would learn more about Sam. I remember talking with Honey West when it came out in spoilers Red and Liz were going to the Midwest, that maybe they wold find their way to Nebraska. But, no.

That part of the story could use some fill-ins. I have always wondered if Sam was simply someone Red felt he could use to hide Liz or was more important. How close were they? How much did Sam know about Red? Oh, well! Maybe sometime.

Tabasko said...

Small aside, but the TV guide on my FIOS is listing a Law & Order SVU rerun for Thursday at 9, and no Blacklist rerun.

Rori said...

Checking in after my Netflix-Show-that-shall-remain-nameless Binge. Phew! That annual ritual is over. I confess to being none the better for it...but all the beige scenery lures me back there year after year.

And, I must say that it was a hoot to be reminded that Reed Birney (aka: Tom Connolly) plays the VP and is 180 degrees opposite his Connolly character. It was almost disorienting--but good on him for being a versatile actor!

Ok, THIS:
#80 deadskie13 said... "And so I was walking around with a Magna Doodle to communicate with."
Hahahahahaha!! (not about the sickness, of course!) That was the funniest thing I have heard in a long time! You need to TM that scene and sell it to the highest Prime-time TV comedy script writer bidder! I need to ask, does your place of employment provide Magna Doodles, or did you happen to have one on your person? Surely
'The Office" wishes it had included that one!

Ditto, Tabasko #72, about JBiltz's avatar. HA! Tubes...(as we all know, the Internets is a series of 'em)...so, it was fabulous that they resurrected the NYC underground tangle of pneumatic tubes as a means of communication in The Caretaker-- AND fitting that JB's avatar is a canister.
I actually loved that part of the story line; and the quirky guy running the transport station (forgot name!). The whole scene down there was so reminiscent of Terry Gilliam movies to me! (Brazil/Fisher King, etc)
I would hope that theme gets more play in a future episode--it's perfect for TBL.

Lake Girl said...

Rori, I squeezed in the first episode while my son was in preschool and his brother was napping. The other baby fell asleep right at the end, so I took that as a sign to get outside and do some yard work. Got a small chunk done :) Later, we were all playing outside :) And now I'm exhausted!

JBiltz said...

I loved those tubes. If everyone had their own tube life would be easier. Amazon should totally get into that instead of drones. The fact that Red has his own tube system is just awesome. I figured I would change my avatar when ever something new comes up that is interesting. For instance those muscles in season 2 that almost got Liz caught or that polish jelly doughnut.

deadskie13 said...

Eastcoast: Sorry I'm a bit behind, but you bring up a lot of good points! One thing I've always thought was kind of odd, was the whole deal where "Tom" was looking into Lizzy's parentage, in the first place. Figure Red definitely knows who her parents are, and Berlin's interest in Liz was only as a way to potentially cause Red harm. So I imagine Tom either was kicking up dust to satisfy his own curiosity--or, is potentially working for yet another person. Jeez-o-peetz! How many employers does this guy need?

Charmed: I think what really makes this place amazing, is the quality of people it attracts. Which definitely wouldn't be possible, without you lovely moderators! Thanks for always looking out for us! You and Tabasko--and of course Chompstick! ^-^

Tabasko: I had a relapse! And so work was correct! (But let's not tell them that.) ^-^ (P.S. If anyone feels like they have a sinus infection, do be careful. Apparently there's a new dealy-o going around that starts off like a sinus infection, but then dumps flu-like symptoms on top of everything else. Pish!)

I'm left with the impression that Katerina played Red in some kind of way. And so I believe Red heard her feelings firsthand, on the matter. But since we don't know Katerina personally, I don't trust her motives or her character at all or in the least. It'll be interesting when she is thrown into the mix, whether it be flashbacks (if deceased), or present-time (if living), though. Because then we'll have a better chance to squint our eyes at her, and give her the once over, directly, instead of through Red's elusive perspective.

Lake Girl: Thanks! I believe, like you and Tabasko, that Red was the one who pulled Lizzy from the closet. Even though her memories are all a jumbled mess, the one that stood out the most to me, was the look of realization on her face, when the closet door opens--shortly after Red joins her memories, to try and coax answers about the Fulcrum from her. I always figured his back was burned up, on account that he removed his coat to toss it over her, before ushering her to safety.

deadskie13 said...

Kodiak and One Paul have to be two separate people, because that much awesomeness cannot reside in one person! :D

One Paul: Etch-a-sketches are so difficult to write on! XD

DZ731: I liked Sam a lot too! And it would be great to see a couple of flashbacks with him and Red. Maybe find out how they know each other and all. There must be so many amazing backstories floating around The Blacklist writers. :D

Rori: I changed my avatar just for you! Do forgive me, though. Magna Doodle isn't my media of choice. XD (And the whole "You talk too much" is directed at no one but me. Because I can't talk. And I enjoy irony. And being socially awkward. ::scurries::)

Heh! Actually, I have terrible seasonal allergies, and so this isn't my first go-around. A few years ago I got a wicked sinus infection that lasted a couple of months, and knocked my voice out for a few weeks. (And caused an ear drum to burst. Gah!) And that is when I marched down the toy aisle, and snagged a Magna Doodle, and had at it. (And also because maybe I secretly always wanted one, because cool things like that didn't exist when I was a kiddo.) That, and I'm a big fan of the ridiculous--but only in a quiet kind of rebelling kind of way. ^-^

That being said--and do forgive me if I've missed it somewhere--one of my concerns is the bit where Red left Velov alive, in the first place. Figure Red isn't one to shy away from killing someone if he needs to--but at the same time, he doesn't seem to kill people without reason. But he clearly thinks Velov potentially has some kind of information that could be detrimental to Liz, on account that he's having him watched.

Given as such, I guess I kind of find it odd that Red didn't necessarily "allow"--but at the same time didn't do everything possible to prevent such a situation from occurring. And it's interesting that Cooper set this particular situation in motion. I'm not entirely certain what any of it means, but it's something I keep going back to. If nothing else, it could just be a (very damaging) reminder that Red isn't infallible, and occasionally slips up, like the rest of us.

Kodiak said...

Honey West #47 lol and thanks! Yes, something's rotten in the ol' State of Denmark there.

Tabasko #48 lol as well! I feel conflicted about who gave Gina the diamond job now, but taking a couple statements off the Spoiler Page that you and One Paul made that are not Spoilers, I like the idea that Red came into it later, Maybe he contacted the Major or vice versa. Then Red saves Tom's life and possibly may need to do it again if The Major comes back.

Tabasko #49 cool idea to list the parallels in S3. I remember thinking in Marv Gererd (I bet Becky calls him Marv) that there was a parallel between Marv and Red, in that they were both somewhat forced into doing something they felt they had no choice but to do, and ended up in a lot of trouble because of it. And lost a child, although the ways were not similar.

eastcoast #58 and other #'s yeah, I agree someone would have been looking for Liz all this time. I mean, that is why she is with Sam. And you and others have given the good reasons to think that.

Charmed #60 I think I inadvertently answered you by now, but the last question, my guess is like some other peep's and I think The Major interrupts the wedding and Solomon will be joining us some other way. Who knows on TBL, though! I cannot remember any links between The Major and The Cabal, but Solomon is evil.

Tabs #71 yes on all that.

Several comments....I share the idea that Lix's mother may have not been all that great. I have yet to figure out how that works with Red telling Liz she was a big blessing and so on, but you guys have cited quite a bit that doesn't match up. I think that is going to be part of any twists coming up, that we are thinking lately she might be looking for Liz for good reasons, but is not. Lake Girl, eastcoast, Tabs, One Paul, several good points on this.

Tabs #83 interesting "wondering if Red came by his info about Liz's mom's feelings about Baby Masha/Liz directly. Another thing that does not quite match up." Where is that list BL Mom made about what Red has said about Liz's mother?

deadskie13 #94 well, I guess some of how one would feel about Red and Katerina would depend on whether or not you think they are Liz's parents.....and I don't : ))).....but I am willing to be wrong if I am. ;-)

I think it is very possible Red was spying on Katerina. Just looking at how much he tends to know about people. He is pretty darn good at it.

You are a very good writer, BTW!

deadskie13 #95 lol! Well, you are too kind.

Good question about Red leaving Velov alive. I guess at the time, Velov hadn't done anything too terrible in Red's view. It's funny that Velov told Red he knew just the same old ghost stories about KR. But one can assume I think that Red knew they weren't ghost stories, So he paid Velov for silence and I think to pass on to him (Red) any more info that The Cabal was seeking and to not tell Liz anything.

Maybe he thought Velov didn't know much. Maybe Velov really doesn't and all this stuff is a fabrication.

Yes, Tabs mentioned during or right after the show that Cooper really encouraged Liz to look for Velov, although she did bring it up. And he was all excited about Tom (?)

Lake Girl said...

Kodiak, that list is on the caretaker page #168. What Red said concerning Katarina's feelings about being pregnant isn't on there :( BL Mom still did a great job finding the other quotes.

Kodiak said...

Thanks, Lake Girl!

Sorry for the long post, but I feel compelled to look at that again.

BL Mom said...
Ok, so I put together what Red has said about Katerina Rostova or Liz's mother. These are just the ones he answered her on. There are many references where Liz asks a question or begins to infer something and Red either stares off or changes the subject, etc.

"I mean, look at you. Abandoned by a father who was a career criminal, a mother who died of... weakness and shame." (Pilot)

(Looking at the picture in Red's apartment)
Red "The girl is you. And the woman is your mother."
Liz "What was her name?"
Red "I knew her as Katarina Rostova. One of her many names. She was a KGB agent."............
Liz "You said she died of weakness and shame."
Red "Yeah." (Quon Zhang)

Red "There was a time in my life when I was quite sure I knew exactly what happened to Katarina Rostova.
But after all these years, I'm not sure I have any real sense of how or why she disappeared." (The Troll Farmer)

Red "Katarina Rostova was a name that had been lost to history. Masha Rostova was never more than suspicion and rumor.
The manhunt and the publicity it generated changed all of that.
Liz "But who would care that I'm Katarina Rostova's daughter?"
Red "The daughter of a legendary spymaster, the secret-keeper who disappeared-- "
Liz "Disappeared? You and Sam told me she's dead."
Red "The secrets she took with her could compromise any number of players on that map."(Mr. Gregory Devry)

Liz "My mother-- was she still alive when I was placed with Sam?'
Red; "Yes.'
Liz "How did my mother die?"
Red "As I said, the matter is urgent." (Alistair Pitt)

Red "Your mother was never the same after that. The man she loved killed by the child she adored-- it was just too much. Two months later, she went to Cape May and left her clothes on the beach, walked into the ocean, and was never seen again." (Lady Ambrosia)

"Katarina Rostova committed suicide in 1990." (The Caretaker)

So, the way I see it, Red thinks Liz's mother is dead. He has some doubts about it for some reason by "The Troll Farmer." But just enough to wonder out loud. He says he was sure before (she killed herself by walking into a probably freezing ocean, we find out later)

When Red says she disappeared and Liz says he told her she was dead, he never says anything else. This is still true, She did disappear. Dead or not.

Later, he tells her in Lady Ambrosia what he knows. Where he got his info is unknown, but he believes it. Then he reiterates that is The Caretaker, with a year.

I don't really think there are holes here. We don't know if Liz's mother is alive. She could very well be dead. Whoever is using the Rostova name now doesn't have to be her, as was discussed last week and this week. Velov's info is VERY suspect, as you guys are all saying. Even the alleged person in Prague doesn't have to be Liz's mom, but could have been someone using KR's name.

It is very up in the air, and I do not see proof Red lied to Liz about her mother at this time.

And here is the addition of the part from "The Vehm"

Red "When your mother was pregnant with you, it was terribly inconvenient. The Cold War was ending. Her country was falling apart. Everything she had ever known. She dreaded having a child. Almost aborted it. Not one day of her pregnancy did she ever think of you as anything but a curse. And then, from the second you were born there was never a day when she thought you were anything but a blessing."

I think it could be either way here. This info could come directly or second-hand (say Liz's father tells this to Red) or by Red spying on them.

Lake Girl said...

Kodiak, your welcome :) Thanks for adding the part from "The Vehm"

Lake Girl said...

Kodiak,
Your right. The info, like a lot of the info we are given, is vague enough to go either way. The writers may drive us nuts doing that, but it has made for some great discussions!

JBiltz said...

I think that Red did raise Liz for a couple of years. From the fire on Xmas 1988 to Xmas 1990 when whatever happened to his family and caused him to run happened. Red's wife Carla knew Liz, seemed to know her well and knew her as Elizabeth not Masha. What is more I think Liz is what ruined their marriage. Which is pretty Game of Thronish, like the Starks. Except she rightfully was mad at Red not Liz. So then when all the blood and running happened he left his family and fled with Liz. I think Red may think Liz might be his daughter. Possibly she might be his daughter. Possibly she is not but for those 2 years he thought she was. So regardless in his mind he thinks of her as his daughter.

Tabasko said...

Rori #91: LOL. We had a discussion last summer here between fangirl, myself, and I forget the other person about Frank Underwood vs. Raymond Reddington and decided at least Red has a few redeeming qualities while Frank has zero. Good show, though. Mr. Tabs is a huge fan.

Yes! Very Terry Gilliam! Hugo....he was a trip.

Lake Girl #92: You have 3 small ones???? No wonder you are exhausted! Am I reading that right? : )

deadskie13 #94: Interesting thoughts, as always. I am pretty sure Berlin did not know who Red's daughter or even pseudo-daughter is (or was) as he thought Zoe was Red's daughter at one point. And Tom and Red had not met until outside of Sam's hospital. So Tom could have had no idea who Liz's parents were. Not to say he couldn't know now. If he is being Mr. Reformed, so should be telling Liz anything he knows.

I hope you are feeling better and thanks for saying that. It is our pleasure. We have a good core group!

I am glad you mentioned KR possibly being alive or shown in flashback, since I am not ready to say she is alive for sure yet.

JBiltz said...

I think its about 50% that Liz shot her mom not her father. They said her memory was scrambled and she might be remembering the right events with the wrong people. Liz would not know who her father was. She would only know who she was told her father was. Her memory was scrambled, so she may have shot Red, She may have shot her father. She may have shot who she thought was her father. She may have shot Red who could be her father. So I'm thinking 25% she shot Red, 25% she shot the guy she thought and might well be her father.

Something we have not addressed at all is there is a big difference between being shot and being killed. Most people who are shot live particularly when shot once with a pistol. If Red or Katerina was shot they lived. If maybe father was shot he might well have lived as well.

Tabasko said...

Kodiak #96: Yes, that makes sense later in your post, about Red and Velov. I just don't trust that guy. None of his info is adding up. I imagine if he told Red he did not know KR personally, which is all he said. Red would not think to take him out. Whoops. Maybe he will take a do-over.

I am sure Becky calls Marvin a good pet name, LOL.

And good point about Red, the spy. He knows a lot from a lot.

And I have no idea what is going on in Cooper's mind regarding Tom. Did he forget everything that just happened?? I guess he think it's OK because he did it all for Liz. Oh, well.

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #100: Isn't it all very vague? Very little is known for certain.

One thing I want to point out about the fire memories, while I agree they are potentially jumbled, some things are probably not. Not all of it can be. Most of us, maybe all, take it now for granted that Red was at the fire, when all we have is Liz remembering it and Red saying yes.

Not calling that fact into question, just saying that some of the events are probably meant to be factual.

JBiltz #101: I agree Red and Carla had something to do with Liz together. Carla knowing Liz is a fact. Carla was bitter toward Liz, so that is a good assumption that Red's interest or whatever in Liz was a sticking point.

What do you think of the fact that Red is now saying KR left in 1990, 2 months past the fire? I am asking this as one of the BIGGEST proponents of the fire being in '88. I posted a lot about it last year when you were not around, after The Longevity Initiative when her birthday came out and over the summer when a few people said '89.

JB #103: Maybe it was her father or maybe not, but I think Liz shot and killed someone, because why block a memory for just a wounding? We did actually discuss that an awful lot last summer, but you weren't here. (sorry) I know some people are of the opinion he just blocked everything from the night. But why let Liz continue to think she got a gun and killed someone if she didn't?

JBiltz said...

I think he thinks Tom loves her. He recruited Tom on that basis. He knows what Tom is willing to do for her. Of everyone on the show right now Tom is the one who knows exactly what he wants. He wants to take Liz and get out. He may well think that before things are over Liz will need someone like that to survive, again.

I think if Liz and Tom just took off Tom would probably be very good to her for the rest of their lives. But hey, that is not going to happen. I'm not so sure of Red's motives. There are any number of ways Red could have kept Liz out of the FBI. Have someone he knows offer her a great job. Screw up her security clearance. But he didn't. Instead he brought her into the tip of the spear of the war. Tom would not do that. Yes, Red has protected her but he has hardly insulated her from harm.

JBiltz said...

When does Red say two months after the fire in 1990?

Tabasko said...

In Lady Ambrosia, Red said KR left her clothes on the beach and disappeared never to be seen again 2 months after the fire. Whether it's staged suicide, real, believable or not, etc.

In The Caretaker, he tells Liz KR killed herself in 1990. I would copy it from the script, but I can't right now.

I guess it could be 2 different events, but that seems like a stretch.

JBiltz said...

I'm going to put that down to poor continuity on the writing staff. The fire can not have taken place on Xmas 1990. Aside from the 26 years ago statement, we know that Red left his family on that day. We know Carla knew Liz. The fire on Xmas 1990 really doesn't work after season 1. By the end of season 1 a lot of us were thinking the fire and what happened to Red's family were two separate events. But of course that is assuming that the writers are playing by any kind of rules at all and pay the slightest bit of attention to their own continuity. Which is why I left last year.

Tabasko said...

Well he didn't say the fire was 1990. Just that KR left in 1990. Fire could be 1989 in that case. But it did work out to '88 to me as well before.

Could be continuity, which would be a shame. Can't really say other than that. Maybe Braxtons info was off a year.

March 9, 2016 at 6:58 PM 

One Paul said...

Tabasko #105
"One thing I want to point out about the fire memories, while I agree they are potentially jumbled, some things are probably not. Not all of it can be. Most of us, maybe all, take it now for granted that Red was at the fire, when all we have is Liz remembering it and Red saying yes."

That is such a good point. Of course some of what Liz remembers is true. She was in a recall session and you already quoted what Dr. Orchard said. Things "may" be different in the roles of the people and the events and people "may" have been there. It's not even for sure what Liz remembers is wrong.

The point of the end of "Tom Connolly" was that she was remembering more.

I think if you're going to take some of what Red says as true, like "yes" he's at the fire, you kind of have to take all of it. It isn't possible for us to figure out when he's lying and when he isnt.

But stuff like "yeah" to Liz saying something vague, like "I remember my father saving me", that can be true in a lot of ways. Things like "you were there" and "yes"....that can't be taken more than one way. There aren't many of those, but I think you have to pay attention to them. Interpreting father has play in it, but someone is dead in this scenario that filled a father role to Liz in some way.

****any quotes paraphrased. I also suffer from jumbled memories lol.





Kodiak said...

Tabasko #110 I could see Luther Braxton as kind of dim enough to think just 2015-1989 =26 years and not think about the months, lol.

Yes, right, 1990 she disappeared, not 1990 was the fire. Perhaps it means the fire was 89 Dec. and KR disappeared like 90 Feb.

That still makes 90 Dec ok for Red to disappear.

Isn't the story Red (or someone but prob Red) took Liz to Sam the night of the fire? I don't think she lived with Red and Carla after the fire, whenever it was, aside from dates.

We are going over some old stuff!

One Paul Pal #111 good points.

Lake Girl said...

Deadskie #95, I would love to see some flashbacks of Sam, to learn more about him and his relationship with Red. I would also like to learn more about Dembe and Mr.Kaplan.
Great thoughts everyone!
One Paul #111 & Kodiak #112 I agree, except for one point. I believe Luther Braxton is the brightest crayon in the box, lololol :D
Tabasko, you read that right. I have three young foster sons, a 13 yr old foster daughter, and a 14 year old biological daughter.

One Paul said...

Lake Girl #113
Hahahahaha! I wonder if Luther's mom felt like that. And thanks! I was mostly quoting Tabasko in my post, though, lol.

Kodiak #112
Ha! Ol' Luther. He wasn't smarter than Red, that's for sure. In over his head. Way over.
Good points there. The thing is, and you said it yourself in The Caretaker discussion, is that 1990 is an actual date given. Most other references are things like 20 years, 26 years, etc. It seems like mistakes, but the 1990 is so recent and so specific, I find it hard to ignore. I bet it works out correctly at the end.

And all we really know for sure about Red in 1990 is that he never made it home on Chriistmas according to the FBI.

Thanks, also! And yes, that is a good point about where Liz went after the fire. If Red said "there were times I thought I should have raised you myself", I don't think he raised her at all. Or it sure sounds that way. Maybe Carla just knew of her from the money funneling or some other way. Could be lots of things.

Tabasko said...

One Paul #111: Good point to you as well. I agree on all that. And not just because you're agreeing with me, LOL. We just have to wait and see on all that, although we have had some excellent theories on it.

Kodiak #112: LOL!!! Well, I loved those episodes. "Your driver is talking a nap....in the trunk" was delivered by Spader so amazingly well. The delivery was everything.

We probably cannot invest a whole in it, but assuming the fire is at a Christmas, and KR disappeared 2 months later, in 1990. So 1989 would work. No, it doesn't fit at all with how most people would use 26 years, but it is possible LB simply subtracted 2015 from 1989 to get 26. What is common really means not a lot to what a character might be thinking.

And Liz could be off about her birth year. A few people thought the fact that Aram ate a cupcake and left 30 for Liz was an Easter Egg that she was really 30. No way to know! (Yet)

Yeah, ok, good point about when Liz got dropped off with Sam. Maybe I need to rethink that one. I was attached to the theory Liz lived with Red and Carla, but maybe not.

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #113: Wow! I do not have personal experience in fostering, but a bit of professional experience with some families that have foster children. I truly find those people amazing and giving. If you ever feel comfortable, please tell us more.

And now I need to know if....you live by a lake, or just like lakes. : )

One Paul #114: More good points! I bet it will work out correctly at the end myself. There have been a few times where I thought they made mistakes, and I was way off. Cooper, for example. I really questioned when he came out of the hospital with a cane after nearly being strangled to death, and thought the show majorly goofed up the symptoms. Obviously, that was wrong. And I thought it was odd Liz didn't notice she was pregnant recently, but it turned out she was just ignoring her symptoms. Wrong again! So at this point I am just waiting to see what happens and enjoying our discussions and theories.

Too much fun to be had to worry about it! Gotta enjoy James Spader while he's on.

One Paul said...

Eastcoast
I was thinking about where you brought up that older clip about Tom discovering something. Is it too simple to think he just was figuring out Liz was figuring him out?

One Paul said...

Tabs #116
Interesting. Good examples. I enjoy the show for what it is and like trying to assemble the pieces with you guys.

Eastcoast said...

One Paul, when I looked at that clip again that was not the impression I had. And I think that especially since Tom is always telling this he's not who you think he is. Also when they show his wall of Clues you can see where he has lines drawn to and from pictures and docuents, Reddington and Sam and pictures of her when she was a little girl there's a picture that house that he blew up pictures of her school and college pictures from Reds past, some of Reds colleagues. And when Tom saw he was dying he also told her that her father was alive.


eastcoast said...

Lake Girl #84, I have long thought that it was intended for her mother or that she had shot her mom.

Before I get into this next part I was wondering if that cabin Red took Naomi to is a place where Red and Katrina might have had an affair/or love child?

Since dec 24th 1990 seams to be the pivotal date, I went and looked at the calendar for 1990, and Christmas was on Tuesday and the kids would have been on vacation. So I was thinking about Naomi saying she was told she had to go and her daughter wasn't out of school yet on a Wednesday.

In the pilot they said he was on his way home for Christmas and never arrived which would have been Monday night.
So I wondered if he had been away for a while and that is how they 'Knew' that to be the case. That he had been working on something for a few weeks and he was on his way home for the holidays.

I was thinking that Red did not know what happened to Naomi and his daughter and thought maybe they were killed until the Lord Baltimore episode when he learned they were in protective custody. So maybe they came the week before and took them out and left Red with the impression they were dead.

Next thought I had...
Fitch had said to Red 'you stole some very damaging information about us'.
Referring I suppose to the fulcrum which Katrina knew about because they were arguing about it. She said to give it back and he said it was keeping him alive which goes along with this whole thing about Red trying to find out what happened to it.
I have a Big TV And the person laying in the floor shot looks like Red even if it isn't him. There is a line from that episode that bug me.
They framed Masha??? So they framed a kid? There is something I don't get about that, so if someone else does please fill me in.

If those people thought the fulcrum was there they might have set the place on fire t destroy it and whoever was laying in the floor.



Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #119: Yes, Tom was definitely gathering info on a lot of stuff and in particular Red and Liz. Well, he was working for Berlin there anyway. No contact for a long time, of course, and he could have been doing something his own. I can't say I know what he would have discovered that the show would let lie dormant for so long, but...

If Tom tells Liz Red is not who she thinks he is, who exactly does Liz think Red is? Both him and Carla say that. I think they just both meant Red in their opinion is not out to help Liz, but to manipulate her.

Insofar as Tom telling Liz her father is alive, boy that is a question. Many people have pointed out here that Liz told Red that, and he never actually heard Tom say it. If it was said, it sure seems like Liz should have asked Tom about it by now. That has been awhile!

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #120: You have a lot of interesting thoughts here. Some of them I can fill you in a but on what has been discussed here before. I am sorry sometimes we do not have a summary of some of this stuff. Maybe we should make one. Anyway, I only tell you guys who are new that some things have been discussed before so you know we are on the same page thinking about it, and to let the people who have written about it know I am acknowledging all the effort they've put in.

Carla definitely had an odd reaction to that cabin. Whether it's that or not, we don't know, but something about it bothered her. She could not believe Red took her there. Could be that it had a bad association for her in that way.

That is an interesting thought that Red never arrived (which is the FBI story) but thinks Carla and Jennifer are dead. Could very well be.

On the protective custody thing, I think they are a couple options. If someone took them before Red disappeared, the the FBI or someone else would have had to have been going after Red before he disappeared. Could be. He may have disappeared knowing he was walking into something Christmas Eve. That would expain the Wednesday.

The other possibility is that even though Red did not show up Christmas Eve, the relocating of Carla and Jennifer did not happen right away,

"My daughter had a life with a house and a... dog. And then I woke up one day... You can't imagine what it's like to have a man like Raymond Reddington turn your life upside down. They accused me of being a part of it. Somehow, I was a suspect. Put my life under a-a microscope... every call, e-every charge. My assets were... [Sighs] I finally convinced them I was innocent. They said I had to go, give up everything. I remember it was a Wednesday afternoon. My daughter wasn't even out of school yet. And by Thursday, we were in Philadelphia, fending for ourselves. "

There seems to be a bit of a gap between when Red was gone and Carla was questioned. Finally she convinces them of her innocence.....and then she is relocated suddenly after. This could be a good while after Christmas.

I think the thing Fitch said about stealing info, yes the Fulcrum most likely, referred to after the fire. And Red did not have it anyway and did not know where it was. He was bluffing Fitch. So whoever had the Fulcrum fire night, seemingly the man arguing with Katerina, I don't think Red had The Fulcrum. I think those are 2 separate men.

Lastly, the "framed" part is an unfortunate mistype in some CC services and some transcripts. Forever Dreaming and Springfield Springfield both get their transcripts from the CC that airs on the show. It makes mistakes sometimes. That line is actually, "they threatened Masha" which makes a whole lot more sense. It is correct on Amazon's CC service and several other transcriptions. It was very confusing at the time.

Lake Girl said...

Tabasko #122, thanks for sharing the group's past thoughts with us.
Eastcoast #120, I agree with Tabasko, very interesting thoughts indeed.
I believe Tom was collecting info for Berlin. Berlin was looking for Red, and he told Red he found him through Lizzie. Tom had no idea who Red was or where he was, not until Red turned himself in.
Tom telling Liz her dad was alive has always bugged me! Does he really know something? And why hasn't she questioned him about it? She is so desperate to know her parents that she is willing to believe Velov, but not ask Tom about her dad?
Tabasko, I'm just a hop, skip, and a jump from Lake Erie, in PA. And I do like the lake :)

Lake Girl said...

I meant that Tom had no idea what Reddington looked like. He had never met him before that day outside the hospital. Not that he had no idea who Red was.

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #123, 124: Yes. good additions there. What Tom said in "Leonard Caul"...

"You know, that day at the hospital, the day Sam died, I think about that day a lot. I worked for you two years-- we never met. You were always this shadow, moving from place to place, talked about, but never seen. And then... there you were."

My post up there should say 'we' never heard Tom allegedly say to Liz that her father was alive. But if he did, yeah, that should have come up. I know someone tweeted that to Eisendrath once and he said "Did Tom say that?"

So maybe he didn't.

But, yes! Back to Velov. I guess that is the point, she is desperate for info and knows Red doesn't give her much. But, gee. I agree with you there!

Lake Girl, that is cool!!!! I live just in Pittsburgh. I love Lake Erie! We took tons of vacations there when I was growing up in the 70s/80s and still try and make it up once a summer. I have a 5 year-old daughter....Waldameer Park!!!

Cool place to live.

JBiltz said...

I don’t think Red stole the fulcrum from the Cabal. I think Carla or her husband stole it. If Liz had it then it was stolen before Red went rogue. It is possible Red stole some of equipment needed to decipher it such as the box he had hidden in the car at the Kenyon’s compound. If the fire was 1988 then the Fulcrum was out there for two years before Red went rogue and stole whatever he stole from the Cabal. Then two more years go by before Red makes his truce with the Cabal.

JBiltz said...

#125 See that is my problem. Everyone complains about Liz not listening to Red. But Red is treating her like a mushroom. Red keeping this stuff from Liz is endangering Liz because she is going to look for answers, its her nature. This is not Liz”s fault. Because Red is emotionally unable to tell Liz the truth he is the problem not Liz.

Tabasko said...

Just to finish out the thought on Tom/Berlin/Red of course The Major is the one who really interferes. He knew Red hired Tom to keep an eye on Liz, then hooked Tom up with Berlin foot more money, selling out Red in the process.

JBiltz #125, 126: Do you mean Katerina or her husband took the Fulcrum? Not Carla.

Yes, you are clear on how you feel on Red and his sharing of info. Others feel differently. We will have to peacefully co-exist on that to be here.

JBiltz said...

Yeah I meant Katerina and her husband.

One Paul said...

Eastcoast #119
Thanks! Yeah, Lake Girl and Tabasko say correctly below Tom was working for Berlin then, so anything he was doing was to that end. Maybe he figured out something about how Sam and Red knew one another. IDK then. If it was something about Red, I don't know why Tom would not want her to know it. If he wants her to know Red isn't great in his opinion, he would probably tell her what it was. Leads me to think it was something else. What are your thoughts?

Tabasko and Lake Girl, the rest of your posts
Good stuff! Agree on all that.

Tabs #128
RIght.
Red to the Major: "You betrayed me. You sold me an asset and then allowed him to turn when Berlin offered you twice as much."

Eastcoast said...

What I really want to know is who put the fulcrum in the bunny rabbit???

IreneAdler said...

You guys really write a lot, it's hard to keep up :)

Tabasko #122 I agree with your "other possibility" I think it makes more sense that the FBI would question her after Red disappeared and was accused of leaking classified info.

Speaking of Carla and Jenifer (this was probably discussed before...) I am very much convinced that Jenifer isn't Red's daughter. First of all Carla keeps referring to her as "my daughter" she never says "our daughter". I guess it could also be an emotional reaction to the fact that Red left them, and she feels that he no longer deserves to be called her father, but I think it's more likely that it's because she is just her daughter. And if she was his daughter how come he can’t find her? Glen seems to be able to find everybody. I guess that he isn’t even trying because she isn’t his daughter. Then, there is the conversation that Red had with Berlin's daughter, when she asks him if he has children and he says he has a daughter, and then when she asks him if they are clos, he replies that it's complicated... He hasn't seen Jenifer for more than 20 years, if she was his daughter he would just say "No". On the other hand, if Liz is his daughter, it would make much more sense…

But trying to untangle Reds past is really brain-wrecking because they’ve given us so few clues to go on. Think about it: the only things we know for sure is that: 1. there was a fire 2. both of Liz’s parents where there 3. Liz shot her father (and I’m not even sure that’s true) 4. Kararina Rostova, an ex KGB agent, is Liz’s mom and 5. Red is somehow connected to Liz’s father 6. Carla is Red’s ex-wife… And then they put all of those other bits and pieces which may or may not be true. Every time they seem to give us something they make sure to do it in a way that puts doubt in our minds: We see Liz’s memories but then the doctor say that everything may have played out differently. Then with Katarina they keep going back and forth – she is alive, she’s not alive, she’s alive… She was good, she was bad… And then of course there’s Red who has different ways of answering question: yes, yeah, blank stare, a story… so we never really know when he’s telling the truth… And then there’s the timeline that never seems to fit…. I do admit that trying to piece it all together is very fun and we sure see some great theories here (some may turn up to be even more interesting than the one that ends up being the truth) but I sometimes wonder if it is really necessary to keep this mystery for so long… Would it really ruin the show if we knew the past? I don’t see how… We’d still have the blacklisters, the cabal…

Anyway, those are some of my musings during this hiatus, I’m sorry if I’s a bit long, I’m obviously going through serious withdraw from the Blacklist :)

Eastcoast #129 That's a question that's been bugging me too. It's obviously not Red, because he didn't know where it was... It may be Katarina, and that's why she was looking for Liz the night of the fire, because she knew she had the bunny... But the other question that is bugging me now is: how did Red know that Liz was the key to finding the fulcrum if he didn't know that it was in the bunny?

One Paul said...

Eastcoast LOL #131

Don't we all?

I lean towards Liz's father/pseudo father/mistaken father/etc., the man who put her into the closet, putting the Fulcrum in the bunny. It sure seems he had it and Katerina showed up looking for it. But I see IreneAdler's post #132 and Katerina having done it herself also makes sense. Of course in the fire convo, the guy says it's the only thing keeping him alive, something, so he could mean possessing The Fulcrum. Anyway, still no one knows that one. Yet.

IreneAdler #132

Hahaha! This is kind of a slow period!!!
Yeah, Tabs' other possibility is a good one. To be honest, it had not occurred to me there was a separation between Red's disappearance. Now I see it. Makes perfect sense.

I totally agree with you about Jennifer. Red had concern for her, but he is not her father. It has been discussed....but it is really great to get some new people's opinions on it.

I agree with you, also, about the pacing. I think most of us do. That's why we don't get too, too caught up in some of the analysis. It is just hard to get anywhere, so I just enjoy what there is. You can see potential connections or explanations, but they are terrible about real answers! At best, you can rule out a few things as it goes. If something comes up that doesn't fit my thinking, well, that's on me!

I do agree they could give one concrete thing or two and be very definite and be fine. In fact, it would open up some new story opportunities. Did Liz kill her father or someone else?? They could have left those clues about the fire night alone and not had Dr. Orchard make that extra statement, you know?

I like your post!

Eastcoast said...

IreneAdler, I go back and forth about Jennifer because in the pilot they said he didn't come home to his wife and daughter and also in Lord Baltimore Liz referred to her as his daughter. I'm thinking actually that that her name is not Jennifer just like Naomi had been Carla. I can only imagine some of the conversations that Naomi and Jennifer had over the years about Raymond. I think Naomi is just very bitter and doesn't want her in danger by being known as his daughter.

I also think that scar of hers looks like rabbit ears,lol.


And before I forget it again, 2 more things I have wondered about.

1,When Red was having dinner with Josephine a few episodes back,did anyone notice he was trying to hide a scar on his wrist?

2, is it just me or does anyone else find it confusing but they didn't have a picture of him?
I've had a lot of military people in my family and they all have their pictures taken and they're in the yearbooks. I have friends who were in the Navy back in the eighties and they had their what I call a newbie pictures with their new haircuts.
I don't know why they've been dragging it out so long either, what I would actually like to see them do is just spill it all out this season and next season start with a story of how all that began with Raymond and Naomi being together and having their daughter and what happened to the KGB during the Cold War and how he got side tracked and all that stuff!!

Yea, we write a lot,lol

Honey West said...

I think you nailed it, JBiltz #127.

And I also like your #126. You know, it never occurred to me before that what Red stole from the Cabal when he disappeared was more likely the parts for deciphering the Fulcrum and not the Fulcrum itself since it had disappeared into the bunny before the Fire. Plus I always figured he might have taken other documents from them that he had access to, probably through whatever his relationship was with Fitch. These could still be things that are yet to be revealed.

Honey West said...

IreneAdler #132 and Eastcoast #134, I had thought about that one a lot, too. I had theorized at one point that perhaps Red and Carla had begun their relationship while he was at the Naval Academy. Since midshipmen are forbidden to be married (in fact it is grounds for dismissal), it's possible that they could have had Jennifer and that Carla would have been the one raising her as a single mom. That could be why she refers to her as "my daughter". If that was the case then they could have gotten married as soon as Red graduated. Since you figure he was in school for at least 4 years, and we don't know when Jennifer was born, she could have been being raised by her mom alone for quite some time.

At least that was one way I was trying to explain "my daughter". Maybe, maybe not. Anything is possible since we don't have the real backstory yet. So we can make things up. LOL!

Honey West said...

That's something too that's bothered me about Red/Fitch/Cabal/Fulcrum. The premise being that the Cabal let him live because he had the Fulcrum and that if anything happened to him it's contents would be released. So they left him alone. Fitch said as much in Anslo Garrick. It also seemed that Red believed it protected him. But - before Fitch died he told Red about the safe with the number for Leonard Caul, without whom he wouldn't be able to make the Fulcrum work, apparently. So obviously, all those years, at least Fitch knew that Red was bluffing about the Fulcrum. Whether he had it or not, he wouldn't be able to use it without Fitch's last piece of the puzzle. So it was a myth that it protected him from the Cabal, and Fitch knew it. So when he told Red that he took some very damaging information when he disappeared I can only wonder if he meant something else besides the Fulcrum. And in any case, if Fitch knew that Red really had nothing, was he the only one who knew that? Or were there others. Besides Leonard Caul, of course.

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast #131: Odds are it was Katerina's husband or Liz's father or the guy who thinks he was Liz's father...LOL.....at any rate the man who put Liz into the closet the night of the fire. He put her in there and put the bunny in there with her. He was (hope this much is right) the guy that took her from the Russia to the US, calling her Elizabeth. The one who intimated the whatever he had was the only thing keeping him alive.

I also think IreneAdler has a good point in #132, like One Paul. KR could have put it in there before back in Russia. In that case, the father still would know it's hidden there and just leave it and bring Liz and the bunny.

Not only do I want to know that for sure, but I still want to know who even made The Fulcrum. Someone trying to expose The Cabal at the time, or wanting to force them to do something because they had the information.

Tabasko said...

IreneAdler #132: LOL!!! We do write a lot. This show takes a lot of extra words. You have to write thinks like......if he's her father, maybe, or thinks he is but it mistaken or was her father for a while. LOL.

Very interesting comments. Carla's statement came off to me very much as accusatory to Red for being gone. But it is certainly possible Jennifer is not his actual daughter. We have no idea of the length or circumstances of their marriage. She could be the daughter of anyone at this point. I have always found that statement to Zoe suspicious, even the "a daughter" part, which is very singular. In that case, both Liz and Jennifer can't both be. That "a daughter" is also odds with the comment Red made about raising a family. It made me suspect he had a larger family at one point. But then why wouldn't the FBI know that in his personal history? Just more questions that come up when we have a break.

I think if you dug back to about a year ago in these comments, maybe a little more, you will find similar statements from a few people wondering if they could reveal a little more and still have a story to tell. I think something right along the lines of what you said is something I said my own self! So I agree with you there. I just keep hanging on because I like the show and I like our friends here and how we look at things.

Your last paragraph....that is a good question. I think that whole bunny thing was a bit funnier on the writers' part than it gets credit for. It is a pretty good lark that something so important was in a little stuffed bunny and survived so long. I think Red knew what Liz's parents were up to, and since we do know he was at the fire, and possibly saved Liz, he perhaps bet on the fact she might know or remember something eventually since she was there. Maybe her dad even had some dying words like "Liz has the Fulcrum." So much is still unknown, a number of things are possible.

I am glad you shared your thoughts. Some really good stuff!

DZ731 said...

IreneAdler, Eastcoast, and Honey West - I used to think Naomi's wording of "my daughter" was a clue that Jennifer wasn't Red's real daughter. But in recent episodes, Liz calls her baby "my child" initially when she talks to Red, Tom, and the adoption agency about it. That immediately made me think of Naomi's wording. Now I think because Naomi had to raise Jennifer without Red, she thought of her possessively as no longer Red's child. I was always puzzled that Red wasn't shown as more obsessive about protecting Jennifer from Berlin. But maybe he was, and the writers just didn't show it. In Lord Baltimore, when Red is in the car identifying Lord Baltimore's target to Liz on the phone, he is looking through photos. The photo right on top of Naomi's is of a young red head, who looks to be in the age range that Jennifer would be. My suspicion is that Red knows where Jennifer is. Those photos were both DMV shots, and likely came from Glen. Has the group ever discussed that red head photo before?

Honey West - You are right about the Naval Academy rules forbidding midshipmen from being married. We know the rules, but do the writers? Sometimes I think we give them too much credit.

Tabasko said...

One Paul #133: Great comments, as usual.

Eastcoast #134: Those are good points about Jennifer as well.

Rabbit ears, lol!!!

Yes, Josephine definitely had a scar on her wrist. It was implied very heavily there that her husband was abusing her, so that it probably what that was. He kind of saw it and she tried to cover it back up.

Are we sure the FBI doesn't have a picture of him? I think they just said they had the one photo from between when he disappeared and now, the one where it reminds me of a Bigfoot sighting photo. I don't think they said they had no other photos, but they did imply that he could have changed in appearance, so maybe looking at them wouldn't help. That was in "Gregory Devry"". I have to say, pictures of me from now (mid/late 40's) to in my 20's. you can't say it is me. Not at all.

I like your idea about where the story could go.

Honey West #136: Last sentence, LOL!!!

Honey West #137: I have one tiny idea on that, which is that Fitch was not sure Red was bluffing. He seemed to be the only one who defended him to the rest of the Cabal, almost. I think he sort of hoped Red had it, but wasn't sure. I think he probably knew or suspected Red had the other parts of could find them. If Pepper was a Cabal member's daughter, as Bokenkamp has described, they might have guessed where the key went, etc.

I imagine Fitch thought Red would find Caul eventually anyway, but knowing he was about to die (sniff, I miss him still) he called for Red over anyone else in the world. He ensures Red can get the last piece now by connecting him with Caul, knowing now that when he is dead, the Cabal will close in on Red and he will need to show them something. So he speeds up the process by giving him the number. Maybe it's something he would have done eventually anyway, but knowing he was dying sped it up.

I think Fitch was sort of really hoping Red had The Fulcrum.

Lake Girl said...

Tabasko, Its a small world after all....lol. We have a family reunion at Waldameer every summer. And there is so much to do at Presque Isle!
JBiltz #126, Good point. If Red had the Fulcrum, he would've hidden it in a safe place.
#127, On the one hand, I agree. Reddington can be an extremely frustrating man!!! Sometimes you just want to shake him until he tells her something! On the other hand, I truly believe that he wants to keep her safe above all else. Perhaps her knowing the truth would put her in even more danger than she is in now. I know...rose colored glasses.... Despite all the bad things Red has done, I believe he is a good man with a good heart! Something horrible happened to him/his loved ones to turn him into the man he is today.
One Paul #130, Could it be that Tom discovered something good about Red, and he doesn't want Liz to know because he wants Red out of her life and the info would have the opposite effect?
Irene Adler#132, great post! Will respond later, got a crying baby.

One Paul said...

Lake Girl #142
That is a pretty good idea about what Tom found out. No way to know fir sure, but it really fits.

And on your middle paragraph, I totally agree. Not to keep repeating this, but lots of us feel this way.....Tabs, Kodiak, Charmed, BL Mom, Chompstick. We also had some great talks about this last summer and we will surely be happy to rediscuss that one!

"I truly believe that he wants to keep her safe above all else. Perhaps her knowing the truth would put her in even more danger than she is in now. Despite all the bad things Red has done, I believe he is a good man with a good heart! Something horrible happened to him/his loved ones to turn him into the man he is today."

That is the story.

DZ731 #140
Well, that would be a neat idea about Jennifer, but all of those photos Red was looking at were ones the FBI gave that fit the profile of what Lord Baltimore was looking for. So Red didn't have them himself. And, all the birthdates on the licenses and profiles were all around 1966. Neat idea, though, and I don't doubt that Red may know where Jennifer is by now. Jennifer might not even be alive at this point.

Tabs #141, 139, 138
Agree on all that, as usual! Great job and I think your explanations fit perfectly.
I have to say, pictures of me from now (mid/late 40's) to in my 20's. you can't say it is me. Not at all."
LOLOL!!! Me, too. In fact, it has been subtly recommended I get some plastic surgery. Thanks, Kodiak!

Lake Girl said...

Quick thought, eastcoast #120, I don't think Red knew what happened to his family, either. In the Cypres Agency episode, before he kills Diane Fowler, she tells him, "I know the truth Red. About that night. About what happened to your family." From the look on his face, I believe he didn't know what happened. And when he sees her in the parking lot the night Berlin frees her, he looks at her as if seeing a ghost. Who knows how much she told him afterwards.

IreneAdler said...

One Paul #133 This is a slow period?? LOL Acutely it’s not that you all write too much, I enjoy reading your posts, it’s just that I would like to answer to most of the things you say and that would take too much time and I usually give up, and just pick a thing or two :)

Tabasko #139 you’re right, it takes a lot of words to express just one idea about The Blacklist, as it’s all hypothesis and usually goes: If A and B, then maybe C is D unless F is about E :) Or as you so nicely put it “.if he's her father, maybe, or thinks he is but it mistaken or was her father for a while. „ Lol I tell to myself I’m just going to write one little idea, and then out of nowhere there is a 15 lines paragraph :)

Having said all that, I’m “just” going to stick to the subject of Jennifer for now…

DZ731 #140 I like your parallel between Liz calling her child “my baby” and Carla referring to Jennifer as my daughter. And maybe he really does know here she is, but then why ask Naomi about her whereabouts? Maybe he just wanted to be sure even she didn’t know where her daughter is in case someone questioned her in an attempt to get to him (by abducting Jennifer…).

However, for the moment I still think that she’s not his daughter. From the conversations he had with Zoe and the ex-KGB women in Lady Ambrosia we know two things pretty much for sure: he has one daughter and she’s alive. So that leaves Jennifer or Liz (unless they introduce a new character at some point but I doubt that). Why would he care so much about Liz, to the point of saying her name when he thinks he’s about to die, if Jennifer was his daughter? It just makes no sense to me. Someone here (I’m sorry, I can’t remember who it was) has a theory about it being transference of feelings… But that would only work if his daughter is dead and she is not. Unless he had another daughter, who’ name was Elizabeth, who died, and that’s why he (re)named Masha Elizabeth, and cares so much about her, and when saying Lizzy in T. Earl King, he was actually thinking of the real one… But that’s too farfetched. Red does have his crazy moments, but I don’t see him as that delusional :) Obviously there are also arguments against Liz being his daughter… So I’m really eager to see how they will explain it all. My guess is that, whatever they come up with, it will unfortunately leave a big part of the fans disappointed cause they’ve dragged it so long and made it so complicated that by now everyone has their expectations and if the truth don’t fit… Hope I’m wrong, and that they do come up with something that most of the fans would like and agree on :)

Tabasko#139 I like your last paragraph, it is very likely that her father or someone else may have told Red that she knew where the Fulcrum was. But that opens the next question: if he knew she knows something about the Fulcrum, why erase her memories before getting that info? Maybe he learned she knew about the Fulcrum only later… But who told him? And why didn’t that person go after the Fulcrum him-self? Aaaaah!!Brain-wrecking as I said :)

DZ731 said...

IreneAdler - I don't think Red knew Naomi and Jennifer were alive until the Berlin events. I believe he thought they were dead, and there was blood planted at their house to make him think that. I don't know why Lizzie would have been his last word. Maybe it was just a little last prayer hoping she made it out of there OK. I think that whether Jennifer is Red's biological child or a stepdaughter, he would still move mountains to find her and keep her safe.

One Paul said...

IreneAdler #145
Lol, again! Actually, come to the think of it, it is pretty darn busy here for a break period.
I have the same problem. I read all the posts but sometimes my comments amount to "good post" There are too many good ones.

Just briefly, upon Jennifer, many do think Red had a daughter that dieday and that his answer to Liz about it being complicated comes from him not wanting to explain it and not knowing the full circumstances.

I'm curious why you are sure Red's daughter is alive? That's interesting. In my thought, neither Liz nor Jennifer is his daughter. That's Kodiak's idea of transference, but I do agree with it.

I think something did happen to Red's family, the "family" he raised in the house that he destroyed, which to me would have to be more than just Jennifer and Naomi/Carla.

Interesting stuff!

One Paul said...

That should be died not dieday. If autocomplete would only choose actual words.......

IreneAdler said...

DZ731 #146
I was under the impression he knew they were alive. He says to Carla's husband something like: "Over the years she has become like an estranged sister to me, we can't really bear each other's company but I'm concerned for her general wellbeing…" And he didn’t seem very surprised (or shocked as he should surely be if he thought for more than 20 years they were dead) to see her picture in those FBI files. And wouldn't he ask Naomi what happened if he thought they were dead and now sees that they are alive? But I do agree on what you said about Jennifer, that he would still move mountains to find her and keep her safe even if she was his stepdaughter.

One Paul #147 I think she’s alive because when Zoe asks him he says he has a daughter. Not he had… And that he has a complicated relationship with her. And then in the conversation with the ex-KGB agent (who's name I still can't remember) in Lady Ambrosia, he says to her that he doesn’t think he could have recovered from what she endured, implying the (presumed) death of her child. So for me that means he hasn’t lost a daughter. The idea that he has lost his daughter and that he has replaced her with Liz to the point he now believes that she is his actual daughter and therefore thinks of here as alive, would make Red too delusional. I just don’t see him like that. But on the Blacklist anything is possible :)

One Paul said...

IreneAdler #149
More good points. I did not think i
of that in Vasilia Patinka's comments. I thought it had more to do with whatever happened to have her end up in hiding or whatever happened with her husband. But that is a good possibility.

I just end up with some lingering issues.....what Red meant by "family" in the blue house, and that fact he does not know what happened when speaking to Diane. He definitely knows what happened to Liz.

And he knows what happened to Carla if they did have a relationship, and would have known Jennifer's as well in turn for a bit at least.

Although.....I can see where he could make those same statevents and DZ731 being right and them not being in touch.

Lol, all theoretical.

One Paul said...

Oh, and his statement to Ressler in "Mako Tanida" about love and loss, referring to death type loss of Audtey.

IreneAdler said...

One Paul #150&151
I always assumed that In "Mako Tanida" he was talking about Katarina, and the loss of that love... And speaking of that conversation, I have often wondered how was the wise person who suggested him to walk away from it all, as he suggested to Ressler...

Yes, those lingering issues, no matter what theory we subscribe to we always end up with some lingering issues :) We have so little to go on that at his moment I think it's impossible to work out a theory that would explain it all. I can't even remember all the pieces that were given, for instance I have completely forgotten about that talk with Diane :)

One Paul said...

IreneAdler #152
For sure, if the narrative develops that Katerina and Red were lovers that would make sense. I'm on the fence on that. I could see a couple options there.

So true, one could make a number of different conclusions and have them make sense! Lol. But then a roadblock or two pops up......or a different possibility. I get a lot out of the different ideas and have changed my mind a few times based on discussions.

Kodiak said...

Ruh-roh! I see my transference theory floating about! Well, first I did use some other people's ideas in that, collected over a while.

But, just to be clear, if it is true, I don't at all mean Red has done that in a delusional way. More in a way of having experienced deep and profound loss. I had made a list of quotes at one point that speaks to Red's sense of loss. I will have to look around for that.

Anyway, Red, for all of what I belive are the best of intentions, is a little off. I don't mean delusional, but the loss of his own life (with play dates and bills) and family took him to a place of protecting Liz that has gone overboard. He has lost so much in the past that he has centered a lot of his hopes for doing something great still in his life by saving Liz. Perhaps he also had a connection to one or both of Liz's parents.

Since he has not called himself her father, I don't think he is delusional at all. In fact, I think that shows he is not.

I think he has true "paternalistic feelings" (a coin termed by Honey West) and loves her. I think they both lost their families and kind of just have each other left.

Also, I think he could be less concerned about Jennifer just figuring she is safe or is just staying away knowing she doesn't want anything to do with him. DZ731 makes a good point that either way, Red would go out of his way to use his resources for her. I think that is a pretty good idea Red had no idea where they were. He clearly wasn't supporting them. Carla said she hadn't seen him in 20 years. No way to prove it, but some people have theorized that Carla and Jennifer were some type of cover family. But Carla wasn't aware of this and thought the marriage was real and Jennifer was her daughter alone.(idea stolen from Tabs)

Who knows, maybe Carla had an affair? I feel like Red had really looked down on people who have cheated or have mistresses, so I am not sure he had one.

I think Red feels responsible for the loss of Liz's parents and her normal life. He knows she is going to be in a mess without him and that's why he thinks of her last. That's like all tbere is. I think there is something else to Liz other than being Red's daughter, which is why she ended up in the FBI and everything else.

But......I do see the idea he is simply her father. Lol. I'm not super stuck on any one theory or will be mad if mine gets thrown out the window in a few weeks! Many different thoughts make sense.

This post started out short x-D

DZ731 said...

Kodiak - Those are good points. I remember being struck by Red's comment in The Director Part 2 that he was in marriage counseling. Remember, Aram's surprise at that? So Red and some wife had issues, perhaps stemming from one of them having an affair.

Honey West said...

Good points, IreneAdler #145 last paragraph. Liz didn't find the Fulcrum until she was going through the boxes of stuff after Sam died. She pulled out the bunny and realized it had something inside of it. I am assuming the boxes came from his house, so that means the bunny was at Sam's house all that time. But now I am wondering if the Fulcrum was really in the bunny since before the fire or was put in it later. If Sam did it then why did he never tell Red about it? Unless, of course, Sam had the Fulcrum bubble memory thing for safekeeping all that time and Red did know that. He just didn't know where exactly Sam had hidden it. But then he killed Sam without learning its whereabouts so that doesn't make total sense either. Which makes me think maybe the euthanasia wasn't totally agreed to, but after Gregory DeVry, it seems it probably was. Mhat Liz had it in a safe place, whether she knew it or not.

Honey West said...

Thee last sentence should read "Maybe he told Red that Liz had it in a safe place, whether she knew it or not." Sorry, my cat was walking on the keyboard and I didn't realize she'd erased part of the sentence. LOL!

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #142: I absolutely do agree with your statement that One Paul copied in to #143. I hope to get back to elaborating on that today or tomorrow.

Lake Girl #144: I also agree here. Whatever happened to Red's "family", Red doesn't know what it is. At least then.

IreneAdler #145: I also see the possibility Red's real daughter is dead. It is tough to recount all the conversations over a few seasons, but things like him sponsoring the "Swan Lake" performance come to mind and a lot of his sadness over the past that seems to continue even though he is with Liz all the time now. That girl could not be Liz in 1987 at the Swan Lake he remembers.

I agree the other scenarios are too far-fetched. They like to play with expectations on this show, but I think they keep it real enough. I think if Red is not Liz's father, there could be a way it can play out, if she accepts it and they cement a peaceful father-daughter relationship, and there is forgiveness for the past, I think can play out where everyone is happy.

On your last paragraph, it could be that Red decided he needed to erase Liz's memories very quickly. I don't know much about it, but maybe one cannot pick and choose what goes and what stays in a 4 year-old. The way I have pictured it is that he someone takes Liz to Sam immediately after the fire and Red does not have direct contact with her. He makes the decision to erase her memories, he doesn't even have to be the one who handles it (I wonder what doctor did????)

I think he only knew she was there at the fire because he was there and may have saved her, and everyone else was either not going to help him or was killed. He never really approached her about remembering until he had the opportunity in LB to see what she remembered. I don't think he would have taken her to a recall himself.

I think it was just a little lucky irony that bunny, all charred up, stayed around intact with the Fulcrum. I think that was a real good one from the writers.

I don't think there is much more to who put the Fulcrum in the bunny than the man who put her in the closet, really. KR and some others were coming for it. They argued about it, Liz kind of confirmed that recently. The man's voice said it was keeping him alive, having it, yes much like Red does later, so having info on The Cabal like that seems to provide security from them. We know the man's voice is the father as her is the one calling her Elizabeth and Red just told her her father took her to the US from her mother. I think it is too late in the game to change all that stuff and would kind of render those scenes somewhat useless. : (

Tabasko said...

DZ731 #146: That is a really interesting idea about whether or not Red knew where Jennifer and Carla before Berlin found Carla through Lord Baltimore. I don't remember anyone bringing that up before. so good one. I will have to watch that scene again (for maybe the 6th time then LOL) and see if Red has a reaction similar to finding out she is alive at the moment he realized it is her in the files.

That is also a sensible idea that Red may have simply thought of Liz's safety when he was about to die. She was in pretty major danger then and Red really had no idea where she was or if she got out.

Tabasko said...

IreneAdler #149: Well, I am reading these one at a time, but i will watch the scene where Red discovers Carla/Naomi's photo in the file. I do not remember him having a huge reaction, but definitely a reaction.

But that is a good question about why he wouldn't ask C/N what happened. Which begs the question that if they were the ones he didn't know what happened to (speaking to Diane) then why wouldn't he ask that as well? That is another reason I think it is separate sets of people.

Not too get too convoluted, but Red did know Vasilia's daughter was actually alive. I do not know what he was referring to her with her. What he did say was "What you endured, most people never recover from. I doubt I would have. But you've turned it into a calling.. Nikolai would be proud."
And she says "I never blamed him for what happened."
And Red says "He blamed himself."

It's probably a story that will never come back, but it seems the father was involved in the disappearance or presumed death in a way that could not involve Lady Ambrosia just taking the daughter. I felt like it was the circumstances more than anything, but it is not very clear. Like most things on TBL, LOL!!! Perhaps he did not want Vasilia to know any more about him than she did. Anyway, it seems like there is maybe a lot she endured.

One Paul #150: Well, I am into repeating territory here, but yes, Red certainly knows every last thing Liz has been up to. Whatever family he is talking about, it isn't her. Of course that is a long lingering question about the use of "raised family" if you just mean one daughter. Even if Liz is his daughter or Jennifer is, there had to be more than one. And we see that picture in Liz's burning house of just one child, a mom and a dad.

Kodiak #154: You are saying a ton of stuff I agree with here, and not because you stole some from me, LOL! I am out of time for an adequate reply right now, but I am with you there on a lot.

Honey West #156: Yes, I think you are answering your own questions here, lol. but I agree that the bunny had the Fulcrum since way back. If Sam had it and never gave it to Red, I think he would want to put it somewhere it would never be found, or leave some message for Liz on what it was. I think since they bothered to show it at the fire and show it charred up later, it has the significance of holding The Fulcrum that whole time. If Sam had it to keep safe, Red could just ask for it way before if he wanted to prove to Fitch he had it. It makes the most sense the man who put Liz into the closet hid the Fulcrum with her.

Yes, Devry and Sam seem like major parallels.

Lake Girl said...

Tabasko, I watched that scene again, and it seemed that Red did have a reaction, but not a big one. But the only time I can remember Red having a big reaction to anything was when Solomon was threating to filet Lizzie. Gotta go

Tabasko said...

Lake Girl #161: Thanks!!! That was kind of how I remembered it.

When you think about it, Red also asked Carla where Jennifer was without Carla saying anything, so Red was not assuming Jennifer was dead tbere, either.

As far as estranged, they were certainly alienated from one another. He probably did not have contact with her, but it seed to me he had some awareness of Frank. If not, he found out about Monica pretty fast.

eastcoast said...


i have been trying to catch up on comments! Lake girl, Honey west, Tabasko, One Paul, DZ731, Kodiac, and whoever im leaving out...

I was thinking that maybe he didnt take her to Sam right away
had to have spent some time with Liz and possibly with Naomi since Naomi knows of her and even asked 'how much does she know?' Even Naomi agrees with Dembe that she should know, so maybe there is more to it then they know. She also said she had nightmares After the fire and her dad would hum that song to her. So there is a Conflict here. Red even finished her sentence for her in that episode.

She has had the rabbit out before, one of those times was when they came to her house after Tom left they were about to take the
bunny and she said they couldnt take it and she was hugging it.

From the dialog KR and the man were having, she sounded upset that he took her baack to the US, but he said, 'you wouldnt let me see her'. He might have had her for a while because she seamed to respond to Elizabeth and Lizzy and didnt seam to come running out to mama dearest when she called her Masha.

Also i did take more note that Red was telling her 'to go back, you dont want to see this' when they were extracting her memory. Then it made more sence to me.

I personaly think KR knew if they found that Fulcrum they would kill him just like he said and she wouldnt have to worry about him anymore. I am not to certain they were married?
So I am a bit confused about Red saying how in love they were unless he was trying to paint a nice picture for her.

I was tossing around the idea that she shot a her dad or Red, and he heard her scream and went and got her.
The look on her face when her father reaches to take her out of the fire is one of astonishment!
The writers left the door wide open to play with becasue of the Dr. saying that the events and faces could be mixed up.
She said her dad was in the floor, yet her dad saved her out of the fire. And he didnt answer her when she said she left her dad in the floor and we saw someone there on the floor, he just said the memories of a 4 year old are unreliable. So maybe someone other than her dad was on the floor?
But he did say Yes when she said her dad rescued her from the fire. So there is a big Conflict with what he is telling there.
And after she killed Tom C. He never answered her at all except the part of why he had her memory erased.

I am not sure I believe KR knew either of them made it out of that fire and maybe that is why she walked in the ocean or pretended to? If she heard that he was being treated for burns,
(someone had to treat that I am a retired nurse and that looked really bad! and maybe that is where Naomi comes into play watching her while he gets help)
and KR didnt know where Liz was she may of thought she was dead.
For all we know she left her there to burn with that Fulcrum? That story he told her didnt make any sence to me. Maybe the man she thought was her dad was in the floor and Red thought he was her father from an affair. I wondered that when he said It pained him to say that it was probably the only man she really ever loved.
But how do you love someone whom you admit you were spying on and bring those men into the house?

Ok, I am tired and i am rambling, no time to comment on Jennifer right now. I hate these breaks but I am so glad I found this group of great people to throw these thoughts around with! lol

Tabasko said...

Eastcoast ##163 That could be a possibility Liz was not taken to Sam right away.
What Red says in regard to that "The way Sam told the story... was that one night, an old friend showed up at his door scared. The friend told Sam he was leaving town, that he was in danger... and that he needed someone to care for a little girl... that her father had died that night in a fire. So Sam... took the little girl in, and he raised her as his own... always sheltering her from the truth about her biological father."

So in that story, Liz is brought to Sam the night of the fire. Of course, since Red said Sam told the story and he is not telling ti directly, there could be a hole there and Red took Sam to Liz later, And, of course, there is the possibility that Red's burns aren't even from the fire. We don't know they are for sure. He could have gotten out fine and taken Liz straight to Sam.

Of course, we also know Red did not leave town that night. Or think he probably didn't, that he left in '90. Or maybe he left then and wa supposed to come home in '90 and never did. All that stuff is still pretty murky.

It still gives Carla time to know about Liz being with Sam and Red being all involved in things.

Could be either way. LOL. There is definitely a missing piece or two.

You are right about the bunny being out before.

The rest of your points are very good. i agree about the dialogue and that is a good point that KR likely did not know where the Fulcrum was. I think the larger amount of evidence points to the father. I think Red just mentioned Liz's father was the only man KR ever truly loved, to his dismay. In spite of him doing what he did. Maybe the father was not that into her after she did whatever she did.

I don't think there is any way of knowing who is exactly who on the floor and such as of yet. I am pretty sure Liz shot and killed someone she believed to be her father. If Red had to go through the effort of blocking it and had to "eat a sin" and she refers to it and he doesn't tell her anymore her memories are off, there's a lot of evidence there. And she brings it up this season and he tells her she should never have had a gun.

I think it is a reasonable possibility KR thought both Liz and Liz's father were dead. Well, she would know Liz's father was dead from being shot. If Liz goes to Sam the night of the fire, she may think Liz died as well. We don't really know yet what kind of person KR is, so Red may have been still trying to protect Liz then. Just lots of questions still!

Maybe KR, if she was really a die-hard KGBer, thought she was doing the right thing by spying Liz's dad. Like she loved him but thought he was misguided. And something about the Cold War was "too hard" on Liz's father.

It is possible there was an affair, but Kodiak also make a good point that Red is very disapproving of mistresses and such. I think it is also possible that Red's into about Liz's parents might not be firsthand and have some missing pieces.

We are glad you found us, too!!! You are bringing up some great points and I appreciate the comment!!

BL Mom here, who has been on vacation, is a retired nurse as well!! She has had some good info on some of the medical issues.

BL Mom said...

Hi, all! I am back. London was wonderful. It was amazing to see so many places that are well-known, the history, just amazing!! We saw two plays and visited the Rose. It was one of the best things I have ever done. It was less foggy that I expected, but I guess it is from them stopping burning coal, lol.

Hi to any new commenters I may have missed. It is cool to see a bunch of fun new people hanging around, even during a break!

Eastcoast, hi to another nurse! I have been retired a very short time after working 40 years. What kind of work did you do? I agree on what you are saying about the burns, if indeed that is what those scars are, burns from a fire. They could have come from other things as well, or a different fire for all we know.

I see I have a lot to catch up on!

fangirl said...

As usual I'm late in catching up here! LOVE the spring break discussion!!

Best wishes for a good week everybody!

Honey West said...

According to Directv's guide this Thursday is supposed to be a repeat of The Director. Any other sources showing a Blacklist episode?

Charmed said...

Great job everyone,

Old and new friends, possible new clues, new views!

I've been reading as I could, but my comprehension-o-meter has not worked well for over a week. sigh

What would we do without our Tabasko, huh? Thanks for All you do everyday!

Tabasko said...

Charmed #168: You are so nice. You know I love all of our smart, thoughtful and kind commenters. It's a pleasure.

Hi, fan #166: Nice to know you are out there keeping track of us!

Honey West #167: Yes, the Verizon FIOS guide in Western PA is showing that as well. That is a good choice for a rerun.

BL Mom #165: Hi and welcome back! I am happy to hear your trip was great. I would love to hear at least what your favorite thing or moment was.

IreneAdler said...

Tabasko #158 Now that you've explained to me the transference theory as Red's deliberate decision to care for Liz as she was his daughter, an not as an delusional state as I thought it would be, I like it. I still think/hope he's her father, but I could easily go with this option too :)
Tab #160 Yes it makes more sense that the family he talks about to Madeline and Diane is not the Carla/Jennifer one. But I don’t see how it all fits… As others have mention I don’t see him as the kind of man who has an affair… And the way he speaks of this family, it’s more than just an affair, it would be a whole parallel life… There is that possibility that his marriage to Carla was some kind of cover… But there was a child involved, Jennifer… Would someone really have a cover marriage that had a child in it, even if it was just Carla’s?
Tab #164 Thank you for Sam’s story about how Liz came to be with him. I wanted to look it up myself but I couldn’t remember in what episode it was…
So we know that Liz’s father saved her from the fire, but also that she shot him before that. Either one of these facts is not true, or the events should go something like this: Katarina comes looking for Liz/the fulcrum, she fights with Liz’s dad, the fire somehow starts, Liz shoots her father, those 3 man come in, not with Katarina as I always thought, but to get her (KR) and they take her out leaving Liz alone, (because I don’t see how it would be possible that she would leave her daughter to die if she could help her + she wanted the fulcrum which Liz had). At that point I see 2 possibilities: 1. if Red is her father, he “wakes up” sees Liz alone and scared, manages for them to get out of the house and takes her to Sam (even if he is shot and badly burned). 2. If Red is not her father, he comes to the house looking for him (maybe he wanted to warn him that Katarina was coming, but came too late…), enters the burning house (gets burned in the process) finds his friend almost dead, helps him up, then the friend remembers Liz gets her out with Red’s help but eventually dies of his injuries. And then Red takes Liz to Sam… Actually there is a third possibility: it goes like the first one, but after he takes her out of the house, Red faints, a friend of his and Sam’s comes (again to warn him about Katarina), thinks that Red is dead, and takes Liz to Sam… I’m sure I’m forgetting some info we were given that will disapprove this theory, but for the moment that’s all I’ve got :)

One Paul said...

Charmed #168
Hear, hear! We appreciate Tab.

Have missed your presence. I hope your meter gets off the fritz. Maybe Red's mechanic friend you liked can help you out. ;)

Lake Girl said...

Kodiak #154, Like the transference theory. I've always felt that, while I believe he isn't her biological father, he treated her as if she were his daughter.
Honey West #157, Cats! LOL They act like they own the world! The other night my cat jumped on my lap while I was quilting and nearly got my needle in his paw! Lucky for him I was quicker than he was.
BL Mom #165, Welcome back! Glad you had a safe and fun trip :) Want to hear any and all details you want to share.
Charmed #168, Sorry your comprehension-o-meter is on the fritz :( Hope its back up and running smoothly soon!
Yeah Tabs :D Thank you

Tabasko said...

IreneAdler #170: Thanks! There are still a lot of possibilities that something could flip around and Red could be Liz's father, or thinks he is really. Or that KR's husband wasn't really Liz's father but thought he was. I think the story at the moment fits the transference theory best, but that can always change with new info. Anyway, that theory enables some sense to be made of the past parts of Red's life and current parts that don't seem to have much to do with Liz.

I agree it is confusing about the families. Whatever the case is, Katarina and Liz are not the same family as Carla and Jennifer. I am not sure if I buy the cover marriage story myself, because Carla and Red seemed to have some real emotion for one another in their scenes. If it was a cover or Red was just not into it, I don't think Carla knew that and Red feels bad about it.

There is so much missing info on who is who, it is really hard to figure out!

I think your scenarios are plausible there! A lot of people also think Red saved Liz from the fire, and something like that could be an example of what Dr. Orchard was referring to with the "different roles" statement. Like when Liz tells Red her only memory of her father is him saving her from the fire, he just says "yeah", which could be one of those things where he is agreeing with her about that is what her memory is, and not necessarily what happened.

In that case, the man Liz shoots is her father, Red saves her, and KR, well, we don't know what kind of person she is. From the way it sounds in the first set of fire memories, she is ordering people around to look for the Fulcrum and not Liz (Masha), but she does start yelling for her, and Liz does not come out. But then Liz shoots someone who is hurting KR. I don't think we have enough pieces to 100% work it out.

They are arguing about the Fulcum outside the closet, and Liz's father took her from Russia and KR followed them, that much we do know. The drawing little Liz has is just of a child and 2 parents, no other family.

Tabasko said...

Thanks, One Paul #171 and Lake Girl #172!

LG, I agree that whatever the case, Red sees himself as a father figure/protector of Liz, even though his methods may not be the best all the time. There is still a lot on the past and reasons we don't know, so even things we might question might make a lot of sense in the long run, such as why Red hasn't just hidden Liz away.

Lake Girl said...

Honey West, isn't your Jeopardy audition tomorrow? Wishing you good luck and a safe trip :) I'm sure you'll have a great time!

Kodiak said...

Lake Girl #172 thanks! I wrote that mostly from the perspective of Red never lying to Liz, and from the fact that in "Tom Connolly" she shoots someone she believes to be her father. getting that sequence of memories back. Red does not try to correct her as he did in the past when she says she remembers things.

I don't mean it to be set in stone a lot. There are other things one could work out, too.

Whatever the case, I also agree Red views Liz as a daughter, real or substitute or someone he needs to look out for, and I believe his intentions are good and that the outcome of the series will show that.

Tabs #174 agree on all that.

Yes, Honey West!!! Good luck!!!!!!!

Tabasko said...

Kodiak #176: Right. The thing to me about the lying is Red could have easily lied to Liz the few times he has told her what he alleges to be the truth. The things he has admitted have been pretty difficult things. Of course, those could be moments where he feels if he tells her something, she will leave him alone, but then why not tell her a bunch of lies about all her other questions, too? I think those few moments are the real thing. And again, if we believe certain aspects of what Red says (yes, I was at the fire....yes, I knew your mother as Katerina Rostova,) it is pretty impossible to pick and choose what is wrong or what is right out of everything else.

It can't really be proven either way at the moment, but it does make a lot of sense. If we are wrong, that is OK!!! Many times, I have said I would prefer Red to be Liz's father, anyway. But it is very hard to merge the 2 narratives of Red's background and Liz's with Katarina and her father now.

Charmed said...

One Paul 2.0 #170

You have been so wonderfully prolific at providing your views and needed information to our friends lately. It's great to know I have you, Kodiak, BLMom (when she's not off gallivanting in Europe), Honey West (when she's not playing games) and Tabasko (as always) to take up my slack!
Thanks everyone :))

BL Mom said...

Tabasko #169 & Lake Girl #172, Thanks for asking! Well, I will work on a longer post. I had a lot more to catch up on at home than I thought. I think the trip caught up with me today.

My favorite thing was the palaces and castles. We took 2 side trips to see a few. The most fascinating were the one where Anne Boleyn grew up and Warwick Castle, which is about 1000 years old. I haven't ever been in a building any older than anything around Boston, so it was just really amazing. It's really something to have had the opportunity to see such things in person.

It was a nice, easy trip for a first overseas.

Charmed #178, Hi! I haven't done much, but thanks for thanking me! I always appreciate your mentions to me.

I am now ready for the show to come back. : (( More than 3 weeks left!

Honey West said...

Thanks everyone! Yes, I am sitting here in my motel room in San Francisco reading the BSG comments and thinking about hitting the hay early. It was an easy just under two hour drive this evening and while crossing the new Bay Bridge I was treated to the gorgeous sight of the lights of SF on a crystal clear night! I haven't driven into the City at night in ages and it was beautiful! So at 9am sharp I need to be over in the Financial District at the super-fancy hotel where they are holding the Jeopardy auditions. From what I understand there will be about 30 of us in this group and it will take about two to three hours. I have no idea if they will feed us so I need to get up early enough to get some breakfast. I have a parking space reserved, and it's only about 15 minutes from here. Much better than doing the long drive in the morning at rush hour. It would have taken me about three hours to get here if I'd done that.

BL Mom looking forward to hearing more about your trip! I liked Hever Castle a lot, too. Were you there on a day when they do jousting? We visited the one day they don't do it. But that was back in 1994. Didn't get to Warwick castle but we saw Leeds castle. But I love Cornwall since my grandmother was Cornish.

I really don't have anything to add to the discussions. LOL!

Charmed said...

BL Mom #179

I'm excited to hear about your trip to London. 1000 year old castles - what magic! Did you buy lots of post cards and other goodies? Were you able to experience any performances by street buskers? I was so excited for you.

I think you and your comments have blossomed over time!

Charmed said...

Honey West #180

You always have lots of wonderful things to talk about here. I imagine your excitement must have been almost overwhelming this morning!
I'm glad you had a gorgeous night drive into San Francisco. Wow, it sounds like the producers thought of everything, even your parking place. I can't imagine scrambling for one, while trying to keep calm and centered.

I'm sure you will be part of a very interesting group of people. It's always nice to meet new contacts, maybe even friends!

I look forward to hearing more about everyone's trips now and this summer. Last summer everyone was going places, but keeping in touch.
I remember you at Mickey D's just to keep up with our goings on!

Tabasko said...

BL Mom #179: Oh, neato!!!! I loved the castles myself in Germany and some of the other coutries we have visited from there. It is a really unique experience to visit buildings that are so much older that any in the US. Our meaning of old building has nothing on theirs! I am so glad you enjoyed yourself. Please feel free to share more when you can.

Honey West #180: Honey West for 1000: Who is going to have a great time today and do extremely well?

I am glad you had a lovely trip over. It sounds perfect. Good luck!!!!! I can't wait to hear how it goes and what it ends up being like. I hope you got a good night's rest.

Charmed said...

Tabasko #183

Ha! Honey West for 1000...
I should have thought of that!

OLV announced TBL is filming today at Rugby and Beverly in Brooklyn. So they are moving right along!

Hopefully Megan Boone is enjoying a bowl of her favorite ice cream and enjoying time with her fiancé and family.

BL Mom said...

Tabasko #173, Yes. Those scenes between Carla/Naomi and Red.....she seemed bitter and angry still. He seemed to still care about her, maybe feel bad for leaving her and Jennifer in what he did. Always plays back in my mind to the Red that was left with little choice but to take off the way he did.

Maybe it will be evident at some point how Carla knew Liz, or about Liz. I was never sure if she had met her or not, but definitely knew enough to know.....something!

#174,I agree with you agreement to Lake Girl. Good job, Lake Girl!

Kodiak #176, Yeah!! "Red views Liz as a daughter, real or substitute or someone he needs to look out for, and I believe his intentions are good and that the outcome of the series will show that."

Honey West #180, Thank you! I am going to compile thoughts and maybe post them in Off Topic. I wish you the best of luck today! There was no jousting. Boo. I guess they only do it in the summer. But, there was archery. And I shot a couple of arrows. Lol.

Charmed #181, Oh, yes, in the city there were "buskers", and some pretty large scale street performers. I did buy postcards, but I beat them all back! I didn't do that much shopping. I was afraid to weigh down my luggage. But I bought some family some little things.

You are so nice! I appreciate that! I used to be kind of afraid to chime in. Not anymore.

Tabs #183, Thank you, too! Maybe I will take more trips, who knows? The castles were great. I felt like I was in a movie.

Charmed #184, Is Megan off now? I forget when she was due.

BL Mom said...

I am finding all the comments so interesting, especially about Katerina Rostova.

One thing I am remembering thinking about it, is The Director's comment that Liz looked like her mother.

Any current thoughts on what that meant now that we have heard more about KR?

One Paul said...

BL Mom #186
Hey, good question. That is interesting in light of The Director telling Red he knew what Red was to Liz. ...something like that.

Obviously, he's gone now, but he knew those 2 things and enough to be interested in sending Luther Braxton out for info about The Fulcrum, all connected stuff.

I still go back to KR having been in The Cabal and The Director knew her from that. Of course, more entry-level types then. She could have told The Director all about Red or something look that. Maybe!

Honey West said...

Honey West for $1000 - ha! You guys crack me up! Well, I am back home and all I can say is it was fun and nerve-wracking all at the same time. One person didn't show so there were 29 of us in our group. They did three groups today and I am assuming three yesterday and probably every day this week, at least. They have 3,000 people to audition for 400 spots. Of course they are in other cities, too, not just SF. I may have missed 3 on the 50 question test, two for sure. I thought it was actually pretty easy, but then my head is filled with useless information on many subjects! LOL! We had 8 seconds to write each answer and it didn't have to be in the form of a question, thank goodness! Then we played a mock game, three people at a time, with buzzers and everything. And as we finished that they interviewed us. I was like fourth to last and I felt my interview was a little shorter than the first few peoples', but that's okay. They just wanted to see how we behaved, I think.

There were no Blacklist questions - rats! But a couple TV categories came up. There was a local TV news crew there filming a story about Jeopardy auditions, so our session lasted longer than usual. Probably why the interviews got shorter and shorter at the end.

I did some shopping while I was there. My favorite ceramic supply stores. Why waste a drive to the Bay Area? I told them that if I won big money I wanted to build the perfect art studio in my backyard and get out of my "garagio". :-)

Now it's just about dinnertime and then I plan to sit in my recliner and do nothing for the evening except watch the Boston Legal episodes I recorded on Monday.

And to keep this on subject - I'm pretty sure Megan Boone said she was due in April.

deadskie13 said...

So many good things! :D

Kodiak #96: I have nothing to back it up, but I believe Red heard Katerina's opinion of her pregnancy and Liz, firsthand. But, I also think Katerina is a liar. >:D

Kodiak #98 and BL Mom: Thanks for bringing the list over, and adding to it! It's most helpful! Something that always gets me, is the deal where Red said Katerina Rostova was what he knew her by--that it was one of her many names. So I'm wondering if it's her actual name, or just her most familiar, and what that would mean, either way.

Tabasko #102: I definitely have my doubts about Katerina being alive! I don't know. Red just seems so adamant to deny it, that it seems like one of those things set in stone. If she isn't dead, I mean, he at least believes her to be. After all, he hasn't sent Glen after her, or anything. And that would be a heck of an oversight, if Red neglected to thoroughly look into such a thing.

JBiltz #102: I go back and forth on this one, but if Liz's parent(s) are not alive, then what's the deal? It's not like she could be used as leverage, I mean. And so I always kind of narrow my eyes at that one.

Tabasko #104/105: I kind of think that maybe Cooper's world is falling apart so much, that he wants to see at least someone make it--which would be one of the primary reasons for the appearance of Reassuring Cooper/Boss Pal these past few episodes. I forget the exact episode, but it's the bit where Red is in the car with Lizzy, and he's telling her the Sam story, about how he told it and all.

At any rate, there's a flash of the fire when Red is speaking, so I took that to be his direct memory of the fire, and not Lizzy's. It's only for a few seconds, but I think it's important for a few reasons: it confirms that Red was there the night of the fire, it's a legit memory of the fire that hasn't been tampered with, and it validates that Red was standing in the same general area as little Lizzy was, at some point in time. Beyond that, I have nothing. But leave it to the writers and directors to toss in two seconds of something, and have it mean more than it seems. ^-^

One Paul #111/Tabasko: Good points! Jumbled memories and all! ;)

Lake Girl #113: A Kaplan origin story! Gah! That would be AMAZING. :D I tip my hat to you for looking after so many kiddos; I can barely look after myself!

Tabasko #116: Those writers do like to fool us! But only in the very best ways possible. ^-^ I know this season alone, I gasped a couple of times, almost doubting Red--but then he up and did the "right" thing in the situations presented, and so I sat back and shook my head, and said well played, writers--well played. And so, like you, I'm along for the ride, and I ultimately trust them. ^-^

eastcoast #120: Nice catch about the discrepancy between Tuesday vs. Wednesday! Very nice post! :D

deadskie13 said...

Tabasko #121: I'm not all that great about lip-reading, and it could just be a trick of the eye, but every time I watch Tom's "death" scene where he whispers something to Lizzy, it very much looks like he says "Reddington". I have no idea what that's in reference to; perhaps a last-ditch effort to confess he was hired by Red, while under the impression that death was just around the corner. But I always found it interesting.

IreneAdleer #132: Good thoughts all around!

Honey West #137: I always found it funny, too, that Fitch had to know Red had no way of using the fulcrum, even if he did have it--not without the case. And so I still think there's a very big puzzle piece missing between Fitch and Red that we haven't been privy to, yet.

Tabasko #141: There's a youngish picture of Red in his case files, in the first episode. :D I tend to be the opposite; I'm in my late thirties, and you can look at pictures from twenty years ago and be all that's-the-same-person! Just, you know, with darker circles under the eyes, and more wrinkly bits. ^-^

IreneAdler #152: I always thought Red's note to Ressler was about the family/daughter he lost. But it could just as easily be about Katerina--or, someone else, like Josephine.

Kodiak #154: Great post! I like your thoughts on the matter very, very much. :D

DZ731 #155: I go back and forth on the whole affair deal. Mainly in regards to Red. Because on one hand, we know he has no problem being with someone who's married (Josephine, and also the scientist fellow I can't quite remember who found out Tom's fake brother's real identity)--but at the same time, it kind of seems out of character for him to cheat on his wife, considering how much he values loyalty and such. Is one of those many conundrums.

Lake Girl #161: The big reaction I always remember, is the flash of pure anger that flickers over Red's face, when he confronts Frank--and again, when he tells Tom to hit the road. There really aren't that many instances of Red losing his cool, though. ^-^

eastcoast #163: Great post

Tabasko #164: Very good stuff!

BL Mom #165: Welcome back! I'm glad you had such an amazing trip! ^-^

Honey West #180: That must be tremendously exciting! Best of luck, as you make the rounds! :D

deadskie13 said...

So I've been working on an essay for forever, that's kind of sort of hit and miss, and at this point in time, I'm not so certain it'll ever be ready. And so I'm going to toss out a few theories I have on Red's family(ies), since I've seen it pop up quite a bit lately. And granted, it's just my thoughts on the matter, and a lot of it is going to be speculation more than anything, but this is what I think:

I believe Red had a wife and daughter, and they were killed. I think Red got too close to something too dangerous, and most likely it involved the Cabal, and they went after him. Only the problem was, he ran out of gas--so that puts them at a two, maybe three hour delay they weren't counting on. So they did the next best thing, and finished off his family; if you can't kill a man, you may as well break him. This is the family Red tells Madeline about.

I believe like Tabasko and Kodiak--and anyone else who I may have accidentally missed--there's a chance Carla could have been a cover family, of sorts, or possibly even Red's handler, at some point in time. She has some kind of basic knowledge of survival skills, as demonstrated by her kidnapping from Berlin. I also believe she may have developed feelings for Red at some point in time, which is one of the reasons she's more than a little bitter.

I believe Jennifer is not Red's daughter--and I believe she is also not Carla's daughter, either. I believe she is Berlin's daughter, "Zoey". And the reason being is, I think there was a switch that was made.

I think the Cabal saw Red as a threat, and Fitch was told to take care of the situation. I believe Fitch tried to do so by framing Red, and turning Berlin loose on him. Figure the Cabal didn't think this was good enough--and that is when they went after Red's family.

I believe Fitch was either in a position to save Reddington's family, and opted not to--or he wasn't that high up in the Cabal yet, and had no option but to sit back and watch as the cards fell. Either way, I believe he had enough humanity in him, to realize the call was wrong--and I think it was that guilt that prompted him to go along with Red having the Fulcrum, even though it was obvious Red wouldn't have had the means to access it at the time, even if he did have it.

At the same time, things had moved along with Berlin to the point of no return--but then Berlin was tossed in a hole, and so Fitch would have considered him a non-threat. Only problem was, Berlin's daughter--this girl who needed to "disappear". Figure Fitch got his first taste of the vengeful hand of the Cabal, and it was too much for him all at once. So he makes a move, and hides the girl with Carla.

deadskie13 said...

It's common knowledge Reddington is married, and has a daughter. At the same time, there's no mention at all, about Red's family being killed--no blood, no bodies; nothing in any of the FBI files. No record of such a thing ever taking place. And I think the reason is, would be the deal where Carla and "Jennifer" become Red's wife and daughter--on paper, at least.

And I think they lived in the cabin, and played nice and went along with everything, in exchange for their lives. That's what Fitch would have told them--they would have to be Reddington's family, and they would have to go into protective custody, and that is how they would stay alive. In doing so, Red would have no other option, but to go underground; to "abandon" his "family". It wasn't as nice and neat as disposing of him, altogether--but it definitely allowed the story to emerge that he was working against the government. Only problem is, the Cabal just never counted on him resurfacing with as much power and resources, as he did.

The main problem with this theory, is that there's definitely some sort of history between Red and Carla; there's an emotional context to how they interact with one another. If Carla had been forced to look after a kiddo she didn't know, and found herself trapped in a life that ended up being nothing more than a footnote of the Raymond Reddington legend, then I think she reacts with the appropriate amount of anger and resentment.

She slaps Red hard enough to draw blood, so she obviously feels vindicated enough in her actions, that she doesn't fear any kind of retaliation on his behalf--and I can't imagine too many people would be allowed to do such a thing and survive. And for Red's part, he puts his own life on the line, to get her back. And I could see Red doing that--feeling guilty enough for ruining someone's life, that he'd be obligated to step in, and try to keep them safe. But even then, I don't know if that's enough. She really does seem like she was his wife, I mean. And so I keep going back and forth.

And of course all of this could be way-way off, and so far off, that it's embarrassing. But I suppose most things about the show are a matter of shrugs more often than not. ^-^

On an unrelated note, I've picked up a part-time job in addition to my regular job, which has offered me a tremendous opportunity as an independent writer. I'm super-excited! It only took me sixteen years after graduating college to find a job in my field. ::coughs:: Better late than never, though! :D

Laocoon said...

Deadskie - I love it!! Great pieces above and great writing!! Congrats on the new job!

I agree totally that Red had a real family and a cover family. He knows a lot that is off-screen, but now he is at an amped-up level where he knows less and has to find out more in the riskier complex environment.

I've also thought that the plot device used is that Red is trying to ferret out a really major player. It reminds me of the LeCarré novels where Smiley sees the machinations of Karla and patiently works toward identifying and outsmarting him.

If the show wants to go to enough seasons for syndication, we could have multiple layers of Karla-type figures, including identity spoofing types as we have discussed re Katarina Rostova.

I looked through the full cast list on IMDB, just for grins. The lengthy roster made me think of Yoknapatawpha County. So many characters milling about in a sea of unreliable narratives.

Happy St. Patrick's Day, all!!

Tabasko said...

BL Mom #185: Yes, I agree on that. Carla/Naomi was most definitely bitter. It gave me the impression they had not seen one another in all those years and her pent-up emotions just came spilling out.

BL Mom #186: Yes, don't want to forget The Director said that. So many possibilities. If KR is still alive, it could even be interaction that was recent, or from something that happened after she disappeared.

One Paul #187: Those are good options.

Tabasko said...

Honey West # 188: : )))

Good for you! What a cool experience. It may seem like a lot of people auditioning, but it is a small number compare to all the people around! That is a very cool accomplishment! Thanks for letting us in all all that. I hope when you are famous someday, you will say hello to all of us!

What is the next step?

I hope you get to upgrade your "garagio", LOL.

I wonder if MB will work right up until the end. I worked up until 2 days before and thought I was going to have 2 weeks to rest up, but then my daughter was 2 weeks early. But after about 35 weeks, I was falling asleep all the time, sometimes standing up!

Tabasko said...

deadskie13: Wonderful posts!!!! I am going to reserve commenting until later when I have time to devote to a good response. I am glad you shared some of your thoughts. Super interesting! Looking forward to talking more about it.

Laocoon #193: Very good points as well. I always enjoy your perspective! I agree re: LeCarre and of course that Red knows a lot that is unknown to us and about slowly ferreting out the really major player.

Yoknapatawpha....: ))



Tabasko said...

deadskie13 #189 and #190; First, thanks for taking the time to respond to all those comments. I know a lot of people read them all and can't comment on them all. Even brief comments are great! But it is nice of you to let us know you are reading and thinking about all of them.

2nd, if that is your Magnadoodle talent, it is pretty darn good!

Thanks for another good point about Red and his opinion about KR. And thanks for more confirmation Red was at the fire. If we don't have that, we are really lost, LOL! So, sorry to repeat myself, but some of what Liz remembers is recalled in that session with Orchard and is reliable.

Your 2nd to last paragraph in #189..... :))))

"but every time I watch Tom's "death" scene where he whispers something to Lizzy, it very much looks like he says "Reddington".
Really????? Well, that is a new one as far as I know! Well, gonna watch that over again then. I think it would be odd for Liz to make that up, but I also think it's odd that the don't talk about it again, and then Tom asks Liz if Red is her father later in S2.

I am happy that you are aging well! :D I am not BAD, but 45 definitely made a dent. I know a few people who look the same, and a few I couldn't recognize if you paid me Dr. Nik's $500,000! It is easier with the people I knew better. Someone who knew Red well younger and older would probably be good to know who it is. Voices and things, too. People less familiar, just looking at pics, might not fare as well.

Red and Josephine is an interesting case. It seemed they were involved somewhat before her engagement. Maybe it turned into and emotional-only affair at that point. That may be a reach. Red really gave that Russian ambassador a hard time about the mistress and of course Frank Hyland. A few more, I think.

Now to re-read your others!

Tabasko said...

d13 #191 and @192: Yes, it seems like a lot but they have to be separate families. It seems possible to me that Red got there just too late, right?

I am not sure about Zoe, though, being Jennifer. Because Carla does call her "my daughter" and she has no idea who Red is. Carla said Jennifer knew Red would come and I think she would have been more suspicious of "Kenneth".

Fitch, he definitely had some decency in him. That was a heartbreaking scene where he recounted how many people's deaths he has involved in and sent the bomb-diffuser home. Honey West and i have had some good discussions about Fitch and we think he and Red were more friendly at one point. But then he was fine to let Berlin blame Red for an awful lot. I think that was Red's punishment for taking off. Maybe Fitch thought for awhile Red had The Fulcrum and it would be in everyone's best interest just to get it back. I saw him as someone who knew The Cabal was not great, but having moderates around to keep the more radical element at bay was like a necessary evil.

I have always held the thought Red disappeared under his own design when whatever happened, happened.

I have also had the thought that perhaps, if it was all the same family, that Jennifer and Carla were part of a larger family, that survived whatever happened to maybe the first one.

So I go back and forth, too. About Carla being real and not. I think it was real to her, at least.If it wasn't, why be upset?

Lastly, I have thought that, depending on the Cabal's real power or any other enemy of Red, that files can be erased, changed, hidden. Could be why there's no other story than the one we know.

I really am glad you wrote that all out. Great points and a lot to think about!

Eastcoast said...

Tabasko, which episode did Tom ask Liz if Red was her father?


And to everyone,my computer has had pms and its really getting on my nerves trying to do this on my phone.
Whenever I try to scroll back up and then come back to the answer box it disappears! I had a bunch of stuff written yesterday that was lost.
Last week my phone died and i had to get a new one. Yippi....
So I have been playing on Instagram making BL jokes to relieve my frustration!

I might have to write what I had in my note pad and then paste it over here.

So much good stuff from everyone! !

Eastcoast said...

And honey West, I am so happy for you going to Jeopardy. My husband is always telling me I should try out for that. I'm good at it when I'm sitting in the living room but I told him I would be that person that would look frozen staring out into space instead of hitting the button like I'm supposed to.lol

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