Theories and General Blacklist Discussion


In addition to discussions about The Blacklist mythology, themes, and more, this is now the page where we will post our various theories so they can easily be referred to and updated as the story progresses.

931 comments:

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ziji said...

Chomps, is this where we post general comments...like....ummm...hi

Chompstick said...

Hi ziji! This is the place for any Blacklist discussion that doesn't fall into one of the more specific topics on the right. It will include mythology, themes that will span the life of the series, broad storylines, unanswered questions, big mysteries, that kind of stuff.

Your "hi" would be at home on the Off-Topic discussion page were chit chat and any non Blacklist related discussion belongs.

The front (home) page has a place for comments regarding the how-tos of this site. How do I leave a comment? Where does this comment belong? My avatar doesn't work. Am I allowed to crack jokes at the expense of Chompstick? That kind of thing.

Chompstick said...

I just found this old post from the fall:
Joan wrote:
The design on the box matches the scar on Liz’s hand and the tattoo that was on the back of the young woman who had been trafficked and was then speaking at the fund raiser.

Can anyone confirm or deny that there was a tattoo on the young woman's back?

Rori said...

Hi Chompstick!
I am going to assume that this "tatoo" refers to the branding which was on that young woman as well as on Dembe's back. And that had no resemblance to Liz' scar or box carving.

Chompstick said...

Thanks Rori. I took a look at the screencaps and there is no resemblence at all. And as you said, not even a tattoo.

Rori said...

(Not sure where to post this, so here for now.
Crickets over at WSJ. But I copied by post from there).

New thought. Just re-watched end of Ep. 20/Kingmaker. Thinking about how BILTZ said that Red is desperate, and it occurred to me that, as he often has, Red flushed Berlin out IN ORDER to come get him, as that was the only way he (Red) could get Lizzie back: if a situation was so dire that FBI has to show up, with Liz.
Even if Reddington purportedly didn't know who "Berlin" was, surely he could put out cues to the underworld to egg his nemesis on, thereby forcing a confrontation. Very few of these Blacklisters show up accidentally, And it's Reddington who has his schemes for getting them into play.
SO, instead of trying to go after Berlin, he gets Berlin to come after him.
Just a thought.

Charmed said...

Seems like a good deduction to me, not just a thought. So maybe Red finds out who he can trust and is thinking "come and get me". I like this idea. He is getting ready for them, just doesn't know where they will be coming from or who it might be. I'm already anxious for Monday, well the next two Mondays. I don't want us to wish our summer away, like we did all our holidays during the hiatus. Wow, this is going to be scary good. You're right Rori, very few baddies have shown up by accident.

Fergy said...

Rori, I hadn't thought of that, you may be onto something. In the Milton Bobbit episode Red said to Liz "Several years ago, it came to my attention that somebody was meddling in my business." He may not have been able to figure out who it was so he started the Blacklist to draw them out. In the preview for the two part finale "Berlin" it shows Liz putting the pieces together and connecting all of the Blacklist people to the conspiracy theory. Also at the end of the Judge episode Red told Cooper to remember that Red saved his life that day because he may need his help in the future. So I think Red knows that Berlin is coming for him. The Kingmaker episode sure rattled Red's cage didn't it?

In the end I think that Liz will save Red from Berlin, Cooper will be the one that gets killed and his replacement will eliminate the task force so Liz will have to deal with Red outside of the FBI....go rogue. Ressler will then have to decide if he wants to be involved too, hence the spoiler that says the death of one of the characters will effect Ressler the most. hmmmmm? Might be too simple right? :-)

Basil said...

I don't think too simple at all, Fergy. Well put together, well reasoned, and, for me compelling!

Rori (and Charmed)...good points...so you think Red drew Berlin out...but now it isn't going quite as he expected, yes?

ziji said...

Rori, I think it's entirely possible that red is drawing out Berlin. I agree with your thought.

Remember tom said something to that effect to Jolene. He named the blacklisters and said that he (red) was drawing g her out and if she has been compromised, so was he. So if red was drawing Jolene out, it isn't that much of a leap to think that red is drawing Berlin out.

Actually, it adds up with the upcoming synopsis of the show episode

Red is trying to make ammeds to Liz so he brings the FBI a case they can't refuse.

So, while I didn't see it before, I think you are right rori.

SAM said...

I'm sure Red is drawing Berlin out. He has the information (book) that Dembe copied from that guy Jeffrey and then instructed him to deliver or do whatever he was suppose to do with it. Jeffrey was meeting Tom to give him the book so I assume he did that. Red also knows that Liz will be on board just as soon as the name Berlin is mentioned because she knows Tom, WasCraig and Juicy work for Berlin.

Basil said...

OMG, Sam. I'd totally forgotten about the book! So...help me out here.....Liz doesn't know that it is Berlin that is compromising Red's empire? How did I miss that?

ziji said...

I don't think Liz knows that red's empire is being compromised yet. Does she? I don't think he told her?? I think he only told finch?

She had Berlin way on the side of the wall she built with red. HE was the one that moved it to the top.

SAM said...

I don't know if she knows Berlin is behind it, but when Liz and Red were (cheese sandwich talking) he did say a couple years ago someone had been compromising his business...... Time to read the script again.........

SAM said...

(from Milton Bobbit )
You have been threatening to tell me the truth about my husband since the day we met, and I'm ready to listen.
What do you know? Little more than you.
Several years ago, it came to my attention that somebody was meddling in my business.
To protect myself and my interests, I inventoried my vulnerabilities.
Me.
Among others.

ziji, No I'm just SAM ...relatively new in posting but have been reading for quite awhile.

Basil said...

Thanks for all the work of going back and looking at the script, Sam. I do remember that conversation. Liz knows about someone meddling in Red's business. And she knows, as you point out, about Berlin. But she hasn't put them together. Oh this is going to be one heck of a two part finale....

ziji said...

SAM right!! I'd forgotten about that.

Seriously, what am j going to do when I'm 84 if I forget so many things now when I'm 44!??

But does she know it's Berlin who is compromising gred's company

On the other hand, do WE know it's Berlin?? I think jblitz is convinced Berlin and the one compromising red's company are two different entities.

But , I do like Rori s theory (backed up by SAM and fergy) that Red is Drawing Berlin out.

Jane said...

When Red said he became aware that someone was meddling in his business wasn't Tom the first person he noticed because Tom purchased several passports from Red's favorite forger. Then Red started having Tom followed.

Chompstick said...

I'm in a silly mood...you'll have to check out my recent post over at off-topic to see why (hint - it's what always puts me in a good mood when talking BL)....so no theories for me. I just wanted to jump in and say that there's a SAM, sam, and sam xx. Shouldn't there be a Sam I am?

ziji said...

Jane!!! Yippeee Jane is here

Jane said...

ziji! I am so happy that you are so happy that I am here!!!

Jane said...

:) Happiness is a wonderful thing, ziji!

SAM said...

Liz may not have put the Berlin and Reds business thing together yet....sometimes shes a tad bit slow. She certainly will put her anger for Red on hold...So far she's never solved one case without the extra help.

SAM said...

Ziji, JBlitz may be correct, it may be two. If Berlin isn't the meddler, then my guess is he's after Red on a personal level. I feel he could possibly be the biological father of Reds older daughter (stewmaker photo).

Fergy said...

Chomps....Sam I Am, that is funny!

OMG I can hardly wait until tomorrow night now. This week and next will definitely clear up a lot of our questions and connect the whole series together. Can't wait to find out what it all means and how it will feed next season.

Chompstick said...

So we're going to be here tomorrow night, right? Over on the Episode 21 Berlin page, all ready and waiting for us. Is anyone else nervous about the next two shows?

SAM said...

Chompstick, Excited? - nervous? oh you bet I am! Along with around a million other fans. It's finally Monday, my favorite day of the week.
My BL nest is ready, complete with all the essentials: Tissues, in case I become overwhelmed in sadness. Blanket, for protection in a shoot out & hiding from characters removing their nose (yuck) Pillow, in case I get violent & of course Paper & pen for trying to keep it all straight. And then after the show..... (OMG, What?, Who? But? Why? No way, I don't get it) I realize that some of my theories have been blown out of the water & I'm back to sq one.

Hey, any thoughts on who was on Bobbits client list that Red saw in Coopers office?

Chompstick said...

Ah, SAM, since you take notes already you should do a recap.You certainly have the writing chops.

JBiltz said...

Test, been trying to post all weekend.

SAM said...

Chompstick, No, writing recaps is your job, my job is to read them.

I'm anxious for your recap with that wonderful Chomp humorous flare added.

Basil said...

JBiltz!!! We were wondering where you were. So good to see you here!

Laocoon said...

Still trying to figure out where to post depending on the topic.

I love this all so much because there are at this point multiple solutions to the unanswered questions. The show does a great job of the classic logic game of Truthtellers vs. Liars.

Rori et al - I agree totally that Red is drawing out his enemies. The point of view is mostly from Liz/FBI. We aren't shown what Red is doing away from interactions with Liz/FBI. It's a much more difficult analysis to identify the unknown-unknowns.

The only episode I really can't figure out how it fits in is The Good Samaritan. I see the justice/revenge theme but I don't see the fit into the "pattern." JonBok did say at one time that some of the episodes are more procedurals, so maybe that's just how they handled GoodSam.

Fergy said...

Laocoon, the Good Samaritan was about revenge, getting even with people that hurt innocent people. Personally I think the Blacklist is about Red finally settling the score.

Also the Good Samaritan was not a blacklist name, it was a case that Liz had worked before she joined the task force and never solved. So when she found out that he started striking again she asked to be put on the case. Of course Red helped guide her into solving it too. :-)

Naike said...

Did you ever think about who, at the end of the show, could be the Blacklister Number One?
I have seen many theories, for example Red's former wife, Red's daughter (the daughter with the blond hair), Liz' bio father, Liz' bio mother, Liz' sister, the real Raymond Reddington.
I think it's going to be Red. That the show will end similar to Breaking Bad. The tragic but captivating hero of the story, the one that turned to the dark side of power after experiencing tragic events in his former life, the one capable of committing horrible crimes, in the end, will have to make the ultimate sacrifice. Redemption being the theme.
What do you think?
Then again, the most unexpected turn of events could happen. In that case, Liz would become the Blacklister Number One.
~Fainting~

SAM said...

Naike, I also have thought that Red might list himself as #1. I seem to always go back to the farmer....
One day he stops.
The farmer, who is no longer a farmer sees the wreckage he's left in his wake.
It is now he who burns.
It is he who slaughters.
And he knows, in his heart he must pay.
I think in the very last episode of the show, Reds whereabouts will be in question and Liz will figure out Red is the #1 Blacklister. By this time, she is the only person who really knows him. Her knowledge of him goes way beyond any written files. Liz will be the only one that can find him, but can she turn him in?

Chompstick said...

I agree with both you that Red might be #1, and that there could be a tragic ending to the series. I love the idea of Liz being conflicted over turning him in or not.

I think this particular topic is going to be a fun one over the next 7 years or so!

Chompstick said...

Naike, I just want to say that you have been a fantastic addition to the Cracklisters. I appreciate the amount of thought you put into your comments all over the site, and the amount of time you must take to post. You always have intriguing perspectives. You must either have an interesting job or education to have shaped your mind.

Rori said...

Ok. Just saw this over at WSJ, so copying the post here to see if anyone knows who initiated the theory:

2:19 pm May 8, JenNtn wrote:
"roja-i wanted to comment on your comment, someone someplace (maybe here) thinks that Red experienced what Liz has experienced, meaning his wife was the spy and he married her…and things went wrong…but, i cant remember who had that thought, I do however remember it was a very detailed too…anyone remember that?"

OH! I (Rori) never heard that one. That is fascinating. Something to think about over the next 2 days, waiting on the Finale. Come summer, maybe we can cull back through the archives and find out who gets credit for that great idea!

Laocoon said...

Agree, Naike, in one of the episodes Red says to Liz, someday this will all be yours. What will be hers, and why? Big unanswered question.

Chompstick said...

Rori - I'm hoping NBC airs reruns in sequential order do we can dissect in order. That rarely send to be the case, though.

Laacoon said, "in one of the episodes Red says to Liz, someday this will all be yours. What will be hers, and why? Big unanswered question."

I don't remember this. Does anyone know what episode it's from? It would be good to know the context. Thanks for bringing it up, Laacoon.

Jane said...

As for the 'Red marrying a spy theory', in the first episode Liz told Red that his wife still "lights a candle every Christmas Eve" to remember him and knows he is alive. It sounds like his wife mourns and misses him. Not spy-like behavior.

Chompstick said...

Jane said, "...In the first episode Liz told Red that his wife still "lights a candle every Christmas Eve" to remember him and knows he is alive. It sounds like his wife mourns and misses him."

I know this was in the early script, but I don't think it was in the actual pilot, was it? I might be wrong.

http://www.zen134237.zen.co.uk/The_Blacklist_1x01_-_Pilot.pdf

Rori said...

You are correct, Chompstick, those words were definitely not in the actual pilot, only in that old script that has made the rounds. So we were given nothing about Mrs. Reddington in pilot.

BarbJ said...

Just read an article in Investors Business Daily:
Synthetic DNA Bases Made
DNA is made from 2 base pairs, adenine-thymine and cytosine-guanine.
Scripps Research Institute built X and Y bases and created a plasmid, a type of circular DNA and placed it into cells. The cells were able to replicate the synthetic DNA like normal DNA.
Wow-

Basil said...

I have been thinking about the picture of the girl in Berlin’s stopwatch and the Stewmaker’s album.
It would appear that this is a picture of Berlin’s daughter.
But the timing is screwy. The story Berlin tells is of a woman who fell in love with a dissident. The girl in the picture is around age 12 (the picture is of the actress Booch O’Connel who was 12 at the time the picture was taken). The date on the Stewmaker’s picture is December 1990. So if Berlin’s daughter died at age 12 in 1990, then she would have been falling in love with the dissident when she was even younger (the stories began circulating at the end of the cold war, around 1985-1989 or so). That is highly unlikely.
I think an important piece of the puzzle is that the two pictures are identical. These are not two different pictures of the same girl, these are exactly the same photograph (or so it appears to me, looking at the screencaps).
What I conclude from this, is that the picture is of Berlin’s daughter when she was younger. But this doesn’t mean she was 12 when she died. She could have been older, perhaps in her 20’s…this would be consistent with the story Berlin tells.
If this story that Berlin tells is true, then this younger picture may have been used because (eewww…sorry) there just wasn’t much left of the daughter at the time of “disposal”.
Also, I am aware that Berlin never said his daughter fell in love with a dissident. What he said was that “stories began to circulate” around the end of the cold war about his daughter falling in love with a dissident. Supposedly, she was imprisoned for this Bozo No No. But we don’t know for sure that that is the reason she was imprisoned, and neither does Berlin. She could have been imprisoned for any reason whatsoever.
One question that comes to my mind is why did Berlin have to learn about this love affair through circulating stories? How come he didn’t check this out with his daughter? Were they estranged? Had they been estranged since she was about the age….wait for it….12?
It makes sense to me that whoever sent the picture to Berlin was the same person who provided the Stewmaker with the “younger” picture. I’m thinking Adversary here.
I think the Adversary is moving all the chess pieces here. I think the Adversary may very well have told Berlin that Red was responsible for his daughter’s death when it was not true.

misssissy said...

I saw this theory in the
TV Guide comments following epi 22:
Lyonessa • 5 days ago(5/12/14???)
I think that when Red left the military academy, he became CIA deep cover. His assignment was to pose as a dissident and get close to Berlin's daughter. He married her, just as Tom married Lizzie. The disillusion and shame coming when she discovered that her new life was a sham. Once he was exposed, that life was of no use to the agency, so he was ordered to burn it down. Unwilling to kill his daughter, he gave her to someone else to raise. Metaphorically, Lizzie's father died in the fire. No matter what Red says, the scars on his back tell a different story.

I found this interesting as I had not seen this theory - at least that I could remember -

Laocoon said...

That's interesting, good catch! The use of parallel structure seems to be a very popular (maybe overused) plot device right now. The challenge is to figure out where the parallels are!

Chompstick said...

Good to see you, Basil. I didn't catch the "stories began to circulate” line. A very important distinction. I am wondering how Red figures into your theories of Berlin's daughter? I haven't had much time to start analyzing the finale so I haven't yet formulated my own theories.

Chompstick said...

For a breather from your mental heavy lifting, stroll on over to Hudson's page to read a recap of all 3 Hudson's lives. There will be a new story soon.

Basil said...

Thanks, Chomps...nice to be back. Look forward to your theories when you have a break from all you do to keep this wonderful site going for us!

JBiltz said...

I'm rewatching the shows and I'm coming to the conclusion that an awful lot of women died. Every woman on the show with any lines to speak of and in more than two episodes died. Jolene, Audrey, Meera and Diane.

Naike said...

JBiltz, I agree with you!

Just the fact - did you notice? - that every woman on the show has to wear her hair at least shoulder-long, feels slightly anachronistic to me. They didn't even let Megan Boone wear her hair short, as she just did in real life when the show first started. They had her wear that now infamous wig, but it was Megan who had to take all the heat because of the wig.

So, on the show, a woman can't have her hair short, or she wouldn't be considered feminine enough? But when she is behaving in a feminine manner, she risks big to be killed of the show? Contradictory, much?

JBiltz said...

As of now the two women competing for most lines by a surviving recurring female are the doctor from the CDC and the teacher who took care of Tom in the third episode. That is how bad it is.

misssissy said...

...and Madeline Pratt...

Naike said...

One of the over-arching themes seems to be the theme of the – possibly – daughters. Or more generally speaking, of the girls with ties to Red, Sam and the man we think, for the moment, to be Berlin (played by Peter Stormare). I gathered, from the episodes of season 1, all the moments we’ve seen the girl/the girls on pictures or in flashbacks. Sometimes I’ve included the facial expressions of the person looking at the picture or experiencing a flashback, because I think their reactions could be pivotal.
Please feel free to add to the list! I probably didn’t catch them all!

Naike said...

1.04 The stewmaker
Red takes a picture from the stewmaker’s album. Girl with reddish-blond hair; age of the girl on the picture maybe 12.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9234#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9235#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9236#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9237#top_display_media

Red, later in the episode, looking at the picture from the stewmaker’s album.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9345#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9346#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9347#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=9351#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.07 Frederick Barnes
At the end of the episode, Red visits a house with Luli and Dembe. He tells Luli: “I raised my family in this house”. Luli replies: “It's lovely”. “No, it's not, but it used to be”, says Red. “This place must hold a lot of memories for you”, says Luli. Red replies: “I spend every day trying to forget what happened here”. In a flashback, Red sees a little girl playing in the yard. The girl has long reddish-blond hair; age of the girl maybe 4.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15861#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15862#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15863#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15864#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15867#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15868#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15869#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=18&pid=15872#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.09 Anslo Garrick, part 1
Liz flips through Sam’s things, after Sam died. She glances at some Polaroid pictures of Sam with a young girl, supposedly young Liz: Girl with brown hair; age of the girl maybe 8.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=24&pid=18022#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=24&pid=18024#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=24&pid=18025#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.16 Mako Tanida
Tom’s wall in his secret storehouse. Various pictures of supposedly young Liz on the left side of the wall, including the same Polaroid photo of Sam and supposedly young Liz we’ve first seen in Anslo Garrick, part 1. All the pictures on Tom’s wall seem to be of a girl/girls with brown hair; is it the same girl at different ages?
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=31188#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=31189#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=31190#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=31239#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=31240#top_display_media
http://blacklistconspiracy.tumblr.com/image/80111157323
http://blacklistconspiracy.tumblr.com/image/80120117685
http://nerdreactor.com/2014/03/18/the-blacklist-who-is-tom-keen/
http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/tomkeenblacklist2.png

Naike said...

1.16 Mako Tanida, closure of episode (part 1)
“The episode closes with Red watching a private performance of Swan Lake by a professional ballet company. He sees a vision of a young girl performing on stage. In his hand is a program from a Swan Lake performance from March 22, 1987. Red does not even see the professionals, just revisiting his image of the young girl.” (Quote from Jason’s recap of the episode: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/03/17/the-blacklist-season-1-episode-16-mako-tanida-tv-recap/)
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32288#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32345#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32346#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32347#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32348#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32349#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32352#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32354#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.16 Mako Tanida, closure of episode (part 2)
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32355#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32359#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32360#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32361#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32362#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32363#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32364#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32365#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32371#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=37&pid=32380#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.21 Berlin (part 1)
Liz looks at the photocopies of the “Advanced Calculus” book. There is the picture of Sam and the brown-haired girl again. Someone wrote “AGT. KEEN’S FATHER” in capital red letters on the left of the picture; a red arrow seems to point to someone sitting on Liz’ other side than Sam.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41848#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41851#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41852#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41853#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41854#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=47&pid=41855#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.22 Berlin, Conclusion (part 1 of post)
Liz looks at other pictures from the ones she got after Sam’s death. The girl on this picture seems to have reddish-brown hair; age maybe 10-12.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44690#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44691#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44692#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44693#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44694#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44695#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44696#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.22 Berlin, Conclusion (part 2 of post)
Peter Stormare (Berlin? Russian army officer? KGB Colonel? All the same person?) flips the pocket watch open, revealing the picture of a girl. It looks like the picture of the girl Red took from the stewmaker’s album.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44776#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44779#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44780#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44781#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44782#top_display_media

Naike said...

1.22 Berlin, Conclusion (part 3 of post)
Peter Stormare looks again at the picture in the pocket watch, this time in daylight. Now it becomes evident it is the same picture Red took from the stewmaker’s album.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44873#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44874#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44875#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44877#top_display_media

Red contemplates the picture he took from the stewmaker’s album, almost at the end of the episode.
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44880#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44881#top_display_media
http://screencapped.net/tv/theblacklist/displayimage.php?album=49&pid=44882#top_display_media

Chompstick said...

Not five minutes before coming on this page I was talking to someone about the female deaths. It's not just the number of regular or recurring female characters that have been killed, it's the disproportionate number compared to the men. Meera, Diane, Jolene, Audrey, and Luli. I included Luli because even though she rarely spoke, she was a strong woman who appeared in every episode and her death was significant. So that is 5 of 6 women killed. Amazing, really.

On the male side, the only deaths of recurring characters have been Grey, Cowboy, and Apple Man. The combined dialogue from those three could probably fit into a single 144 character tweet.

Basil said...

JBiltz, Naike and Chomps..I agree! What is it with this show and women?
Awhile ago I posted an exploration of the broader theme of wives and mothers on the show…since it seems related to this discussion I’ll just repost it here…for any value it might contain….

I’ve been looking at the broader theme of wives and mothers on the show, how they are portrayed. I can already hear the limb cracking as I am so far out on it, but since I haven’t fallen yet, here’s some of what I found for whatever sleuthing it might inspire.

Emphasis on Father/Child Relationships

Ruth Kipling (The Judge): her father was wrongfully convicted and she dedicated her life to addressing that. No mother mentioned.
Tommy Phelps (The Courier): abused by his father Dog fights), no mention of his mother
Nathaniel Wolf (General Ludd): his father’s job was lost in a hostile takeover of the airline where he worked. The family left the father who developed alcoholism and committed suicide. Mother is mentioned, but the emphasis is on the father/son relationship
Beth Riker (Pilot): Beth is the daughter of General Daniel Riker. She is abducted by Zamani. No mother mentioned.

“Bad” Mothers/Wives (“bad” for want of a better term)
Floriana Campo (The Freelancer): Appears nurturing but abuses young girls (and boys too…Dembe). Ruthlessly killed her husband.
Ellenore Kornish (Stewmaker’s wife): Not really “bad”, but I included her here as she remains blissfully unaware of her husband’s terrible deeds. (I also noticed her name…Ellenore, not Eleanor…oddly reminiscent of Red’s wife’s name in the “alternative pilot”…gosh just listen to that limb cracking…LOL!!)
Mothers and Wives as Victims
Cyprus Agency: women are used as breeders for the (very narcissitic) Owen Mally …mothers as victims
Audrey (Mako Tanida): may have been a mother and dies

“Good” Mothers (“good” for lack of a better term)
Meera Malik: mentions caring for her sick child (which may or may not be true) and called on the carpet for it at work. Wiki says she left the biz for awhile to be with her family.
Molly Trettel (wife of the Alchemist): Divorced from the Alchemist, she saved the life of her daughter, Amy, when she shot and killed Eric Trettel (the dad) who delayed in getting the wounded daughter help.

Basil said...

Just so you don't have to read through all that (!!)...the summary is....

Emphasis on father/daughter relationships with no mother mentions, where mothers are mentioned they are "bad" or "victims".

The two good mothers I found were Meera malik and Molly Trettel (wife of the alchemist).

And now Meera can go to the "victim" category.

JBiltz said...

Madeline Pratt was not a recurring character.

JBiltz said...

Basil, while I agree with your point, it does seem realistic that Blacklisters in general would have some pretty poor parents. Good parenting generally doesn't produce monsters.

Naike said...

Basil, I love your post about the over-arching theme of the father-children and mother-children (and father-mother) relationships. Your analysis is excellent!

Basil said...

JBiltz and Naike..thanks to both of you for taking the time to read through my long post and for responding.

Jbiltz..you bring up an excellent point. The analysis would be stronger if we eliminated all women who are not so great parents to Blacklisters. The only one I can think of is the mother of the Good Samaritan. So off the list she goes!

Naike…thank you so much for your kind words. I have enjoyed reading all your posts, including the one above about how women are portrayed in the Blacklist…long hair and all. I’d never thought of that! Thanks also for gift of all those screencaps right here for us so we can examine this theme some more. That must have taken a lot of time and I sure do appreciate it.

I look forward to talking with both of you some more about this and other topics (now that I’ve stopped running in the hallways and am actually focused on the show!)

I posted something in the “Liz and her scars, backstory etc” thread that I would love to have both of you look at as I’d love your input. I’m tryng to put together all we know about Liz’s parentage in a foolhardy (lol!) attempt to address Chomp’s question above about how Liz might relate to Berlin (or the Adversary for that matter). Thought I’d start with what evidence supported info we have about Liz’s parentage and backstory.

Again, thanks to both of you!
I'm loving the discussion!

Basil said...

Of course, I'm not confining my request for help to only JBiltz and Naike...but would appreciate input from all our wonderful cracklisters!


Chompstick said...

There's a new post on the home page and one of you is featured on it. I would like to feature short articles about theories, cast members, observations, whatever, and I think the group of you on this thread would do a great job. If any of you would like to volunteer to do something brief like this, leave me a message on the FAQ page.

Naike said...

Basil, I will try to get back to you as soon as possible. I would like to finish a list first and then I will immediately focus my attention on your post(s) again, ok?

Unfortunately, due to work, I have to limit my daily visits to the site to a certain amount of time. Someday I will be retired and I'm planning to watch much more TV and have even more time to read and write. :o)

Basil said...

Naike...I totally understand and can relate, so please, please, please....take your time....it's all about ease and fun. I look forward to your feedback (and all your posts) whenever they arrive. Thanks!

Basil said...

Wasn't sure exactly which thread to put this in, but figured it's about Berlin's daughter (sort of), so I'll plunk it here. Feel free to move as needed.

This question is about the following three young girls from the Blacklist show who shall forever more be named

Bubblegirl
Ballerinagirl
Stewmaker girl

I think you know to whom I refer :)

Do we think these are all the same girl?

Basil said...

Let me clarify....

Bubblegirl seems to be Red's daughter

Stewmakergirl appears to be Berlin's daughter

So the question is:
Is Ballerinagirl also Bubblegirl (Red's daughter) or also Stewmakergirl (Berlin's daughter)...or separate and all on her own.

there...now it's clear as mud, right?

Chompstick said...

I think Bubblegirl - Addy? - and Ballerinagirl must be the same girl, Red's daughter. People are going to get tired of me talking about this but, Addy would currently be 30, 6 yrs younger than Liz. That would put Addy's birth in 1983, but I don't think that lines up with JB's timeline where the ballet is in 1987. Addy would only be 4 but Liz would be 10. I'm talking to myself here and realizing this needs to be cross-posted to Timeline. (Sorry, I've just got to say, how cool is that we have all these different "rooms"? This place is going to ROCK in the fall!)

I haven't really addressed your question. I haven't even started to tackle the Stewmaker's daughter bit yet.

Basil said...

To quote you, Chomps:

Ahem....


It ROCKS now!

JBiltz said...

I believe the three of them are the same girl. I also believe Liz was 27 when the show started not the 36 in the pilot script. I think the pilot script is useful for perhaps seeing where they were coming from but should not be used for facts at all. Without checking my shelves I think I have about a dozen series on DVD and the commentaries on the pilots always talk about how changed the series get when it comes time to actually film the pilot. For instance they pretty much reshot the Game of Thrones pilot. David Nutter, the king of pilots revamped Supernatural into something very different from the script and his changes became the series. Nutter had a streak of like 17 pilots in a row get picked up after he directed them. The average is something like one in three pilots get picked up. You would be a fool to hire him and not listen to what he has to say.

Basil said...

JBiltz wrote: I believe the three of them are the same girl.

Do you t/hen believe this girl is

1. Red's daughter
2. Berlin's daughter
3. Neither Red nor Berlin's daughter

Also, I know you've told us before, so please forgive me for asking again....but how did you arrive at Liz being 27 when she started the force?

Thanks, JBiltz

Naike said...

1/2

I always thought there were two girls involved in the whole story:
- Liz, the dark haired girl on the pictures from the things that were sent to Liz after Sam's death and on the pictures on Tom's wall
- another girl, possibly the or a daughter of Red, the blond-reddish-haired girl form Red's flashbacks (playing in the yard and dancing "Swan Lake") and on the picture Red took from the Stewmaker's album. I thought that it was the same girl at different ages.

Re-watching the episodes from season one, but especially after watching "Beyond the Blacklist Episode 22" again, I'm starting to think there are more than two girls involved.

Red doesn't display the same facial expression during his flashbacks compared to when he looks at the picture from the Stewmaker's album. His eyes are almost teary when he experiences his flashbacks, his face displaying love, I think, but also pain, from loss. In the flashback of the little girl playing in the yard, he even almost smiles, lovingly.
When he looks at the picture from the Stewmaker's album, he looks almost lost in thought, even a little bit preoccupied, very serious.

In the aforementioned "Beyond the Blacklist Episode 22", John Eisendrath says (trying to paraphrase; sorry for my mistakes, sometimes I have some difficulty in understanding John's words):
"Well, we told a story in that episode about Berlin having a daughter. In theory, in the locket, was the image of his daughter which some political enemy of his sent to him as a way of signalling – as if all the body parts wasn’t enough – that she in fact was dead. And so, perhaps he is holding onto it as a reminder for all the things that have been done to her and the revenge that he is seeking and perhaps Red is holding onto it… well, we’ll find out next year why Red is holding onto it."

Naike said...

2/2

In the Kingmaker, Red tells Fitch:
"You know me considerably better than either of us would like to admit. I will win this war. This enemy of mine will lose. Even with you and your shortsighted brethren watching safely from a distant hill. Why? Because as bad as you may think I am, as far as you think I'm willing to go to protect that which I hold most dear, you can't possibly fathom how deep that well of mine truly goes. You think you've come here simply to say that you can't help me, but all you've done is ensure that when this is all over, I won't be able to help you. When the day inevitably comes that I settle up with your little Alliance, it will be you, Alan, alone in the dark."

This would indicate that the story of Berlin is not the end story. There is something much bigger coming not "only" Red's way, but Fitch's and possibly the whole Alliance's way, too. Red sees Berlin as one enemy he is going to defeat. He is not the end game.
I would think the story surrounding the mystery of Berlin's daughter will be solved during season two. I would think the story surrounding the mystery of the fate of Red's family won't be solved in season two, if The Blacklist as a show is going to last longer than two seasons. Just as the mystery of the relationship between Red and Liz and Liz' back story won't be fully disclosed until the end of the series.

This leads me to think that the daughter of Berlin and the or a possible daughter of Red (we still don't know it the story Red told Madeline Pratt is true or not) cannot be the same girl. Concerning the picture of the girl from the Stewmaker's album there could be three possibilities:
1. She is Berlin's daughter, but not Red's daughter. We would have to find out "why Red is holding onto it", as John Eisendrath so very kindly asks (with a satisfied laughter).
2. She is Red's daughter, but not Berlin's daughter. But why would Berlin not recognize a picture from his daughter from when she was a child? Or, again per John Eisendrath, it is a picture "in theory" of Berlin's daughter, and that he is "perhaps holding onto it as a reminder for all the things that have been done to her and the revenge that he is seeking". "In theory" and "perhaps".
3. She is neither Berlin's nor Red's daughter. Well, I don't really have any explanation for this third possibility for why they would both hold onto it.

Beyond the Blacklist Episode 22

Even Ranko Zamani, terminally ill, driven by pure revenge, said: "This is about the children".

JBiltz said...

Basil said...

Do you t/hen believe this girl is

1. Red's daughter
2. Berlin's daughter
3. Neither Red nor Berlin's daughter

Also, I know you've told us before, so please forgive me for asking again....but how did you arrive at Liz being 27 when she started the force?

I believe she is Red's daughter in the same sense Liz and Red think of Sam as Liz's father and perhaps that is the reason Red says what he says to Sam concerning Sam being her father. I think Red did the same thing for her that Sam did for Liz and has the experience to understand what that means.

I can not think of a single reason for Berlin to be telling the FBI in general and Liz in particular his origin story. It just makes no sense to me at all. I also just think that girl in that picture could not possibly be his daughter. She is too young for that to be possible according to his story. If there is any truth to that story I'd guess she was his granddaughter.

Minimum age to join the FBI is 23 + 4 years in the FBI comes to 27 years old as minimum. Add in there that this makes Liz 4 years old in 1990.

Basil said...

Thanks, JBiltz, for sharing your thoughts. I loved your post and so appreciated the clarity and evidence based conclusions I've come to associate with you.

As I said to Naike....I am going to give my self some time to absorb what you have shared...and then..no doubt...I'll be back with more questions.

thanks again! Take care!

Chompstick said...

There are some great posts on here and I hope to have time on Saturday to reply.

Carolina Girl said...

Does anyone know if they will repeat season 1 through the summer?

Is it possible that the picture is of Red's daughter. It was sent to Berlin, but because she looks so much like her mother, he thought it was his daughter when she was young. He was estranged from her so didn't know he had a granddaughter. That photo looks like she has trauma on the right side of her face and neck but I am not sure she is dead. As Red looks at her, I don't tears or much emotion in his face, so maybe he knows she is not dead? That throws me off big time !!

Then, I am still puzzled by Jolene/Lucy Brooks ... What was that all about? All that mystery around her just to kill her off? I am not sure we have seen the last of her either. The body in that grave didn't even remotely look like her.

Basil said...

Hello, Carolina Girl! So nice to see you on the site and I'm so happy you took the time to read some of the posts on this thread and share your thoughts with us.

First of all, in my experience, anything is possible on this show! But I think your theory is quite possible.

So, let me see if I have this right....Stewiegirl made be the biological granddaughter of Berlin. But because she looks so much like her mom (Berlin's daughter) Berlin thought it actually was his daughter. That's brilliant!

So....how do you figure Red into this? Is Red Stewiegirl's bio dad, adoptive dad, someone he knew in another capacity but might have loved as a daughter?

Look forward to reading more of your ideas....in whatever "room" you might post them....take care!

Glad you are here....

Chomps: you busy girl....I hope you do get some time to share your ideas with us....look forward to that!

Chompstick said...

According to TV Guide, The Blacklist reruns will be on for at least the next two Saturdays, May 31st and June 7th.

Carolina Girl said...

Thanks Basil and Chompstick!

I have two thoughts about who Stewiegirl is ....

1) She is Red's bio daughter. Berlin's daughter is her mother. Red was the dissident. They got out of Russia and she was pregnant. Liz is born in 1986. Two thing I noticed... One was In the Screencaps Naike posted. Red is looking at picture of Stewiegirl but a few frames later there is a few stills if Liz close up. Maybe just my imagination but the angle it is taken is exactly like that of Stewiegirl and there is a strong resemblance! Enough to me that they could be sisters. The other is remembering Red's comment that Liz has the body of a dancer. We'll, that could be because her mother was a Russian dancer and could it be that when he was watching the recital, the first woman he is seeing is his wife as a young woman, then she changes into his daughter? Sort of ties them all together! Just a thought and I would have to watch it again with that perspective.

2) I think I said this before, but Red and Sam could have been in CIA or something like that and we're in on rescue of Berlin's daughter. She was pregnant by dissident. Fell in love with her and married her. He may or may not have know she was pregnant. Maybe she didn't tell him and he thought Stewiegirl was his? So many ways it could have happened but I think #1 makes more sense and I think the timeline could work.





Carolina Girl said...

Oh .... Another thought I forgot about. If Stewiegirl is alive.
Could alchemist have did his DNA magic to make it look like she was dead? I have a feeling the reason the alchemist was on the list was because of knowing something. Could Red know she is alive or suspect it?

JBiltz said...

The timeline matters. If stewiegirl was 12 when she died then Red was 18 when she was born and was not spying on anyone then. He was not spying on anyone while he was at the Naval Academy. So if he was the father/dissident, the girl would have to be 7 or 8. If she was the ballerina then the ballerina would in turn be 3 years younger, 4 or 5.

The same with the alchemest, he is too young to have done his alchemy in 1990, 23 years ago, he would have been in his teens at most.

Basil said...

Hi Carolina girl! Well (sigh), I think JBiltz gave us ample evidence that Stewiegirl is probably not Red’s daughter or granddaughter because it doesn’t fit the timeline. However…I made skidmarks going back to Naike’s screencaps (so nice of her to provide those) and I saw the stills you mentioned of Liz right after Red looks at the pictures of Stewiegirl. I have to say, that was haunting. As you point out…it is a close up of Liz’s face positioned similarly to Stewiegirls. To me, there is an unmistakable resemblance. I never noticed that before…so great sleuthing on your part and a big thank you for sharing. Not sure what it means yet, but I’ve got some theories….oh yeah…I’ve got some theories alright! I just don’t know if they make any sense…so I have to ponder for awhile.

Thanks, JBiltz for keeping us honest by reminding us of the timeline! You are one clear voice of reason around here and I so appreciate that you are.

Carolina girl….am I right that you think Bubblegirl and Ballerinagirl are the same child, but Stewiegirl is a different person?

And this (as I ponder away)….If we are to believe any of Berlin’s story, then, based on the end of the cold war being roughly 1985-1989, I think we can establish the following related to Stewiegirl:

1. If Berlin believes the “stories that circulated” about his daughter falling in love during this time, then he must know that his daughter was an adult then (an adult because she was old enough to fall in love)…in the late 1980”s. So, she wouldn’t be 12 in 1990 and if she died in 1990, she wouldn't have died at the age of 12.

2. Berlin was in prison at the end of the cold war. The story he tells is the story he heard, not necessarily a true one. If he was in prison how much could he validate and how much could he do? Someone, it seems, fed him that story and wanted him to believe it, true or not. So maybe no dissident, no imprisonment and no escape (Berlin said he arranged her escape, he didn’t say she escaped). So we don’t know for sure what happened to Berlin’s daughter at the end of the cold war. We only know what someone wanted Berlin to believe (and I think that someone wanted Berlin to believe it was Red who caused his daughter’s death, thus creating a vendetta against Red that could destroy him).

3. Red was between 25 and 29 at the end of the cold war, a time just preceding the happenings in 1990. (cue dun de dun dun music)
4. The pictures in the stewmaker’s album and the picture in Berlin’s pocketwatch are identical. Not two pictures of the same girl….identical pictures. Berlin recognizes the girl as his daughter, so I think we can assume it is (as Naike suggested). But this is a picture of his daughter at 12. Why would this picture be used when, if she died in 1990, she died as an adult? And why send Berlin a picture of his daughter as a child? Were Berlin and his daughter estranged making an early picture of his daughter easier for him to recognize than one of her as an adult?

JBiltz said...

The Cold War ran from the end of WWII to when the Berlin Wall fell. Call it 40-45 years. I would consider the last ten years or so of that to be the end of the Cold War. It really started to thaw a lot with the SALT agreements and the Soviets getting kicked out of Afghanistan.

fangirl said...

JB, I'm in awe of your knowledge as well as your logical analyses of all things. A beauty to behold.

JBiltz said...

I was in the Army for a lot of that. So you sort of take an interest in it. I was really out of touch during the 1989-1990 years that are so key to the show though.

Charmed said...

Just curious, JBiltz. We you overseas by chance? I hope you were safe.

JBiltz said...

I did a 6 month rotation through the Sinai with the Multinational Forces and Observers. Got back and around 5 months later Desert Shield kicked off and was gone for 8 months. During the time in between I was sent to a 10 week NCO school, took a leave and pretty much spent the rest of the time in the field trying to get the unit back up to standards after the Sinai. Somewhere in there I met a woman who I married when I got back from Iraq. It was a busy two years.

Naike said...

JBiltz, my father served his country of origin in Baghdad from 1989-1992. He was there during the first gulf war (form the point of view of Iran and Iraq they would consider it the second gulf war).
My father has written a book about the history of the Irak and the background of all the events that eventually led to the first (second) and second (third) gulf war. As some of the information in the book is classified, at least 30 years since 1990 will have to pass before he will be allowed to publish it.

B Radley said...

Just some thoughts on Gina Z - I watched the Gina Z episode again the other night. The last call she received on her phone that the FBI recovered was from a dummy corporation in "Berlin" the city. The voice on the recording sounds like "Berlin" the person.

Another thought - Gina Z escaped from prison. Who do we know that arranges escapes of high profile government prisoners? Fitch.

Did Gina work for Berlin or for Fitch? Maybe she has worked for both.

Chompstick said...

Great observation, B Radley. Maybe Fitch and Berlin work together?

Welcome to the site.

Redravenous said...

I'm thrilled that some of you are still posting and hopefully I haven't completely missed out on the discussion. Can you believe I just re-watched the finale this afternoon? I've not been able to dedicate any time to The Blacklist since the finale aired and even then I was distracted so didn't feel I had much to offer until I had the chance to watch it a second time.

After re-watching it with multiple rewinds I then read through all your posts on the finale stream and then here, as well as watching most of the links. Thanks to all and I am fortunate to you all to count on for keeping me so informed.

Thanks to Chomps - your work on this site is commendable. And thanks to those that noticed my absence, that always makes me feel special.

Chompstick said...

Of course we noticed your absence! I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're glad you're here. I can't believe you went that long without watching the finale. What did you think of it?

The site has been doing wonderfully. Of course it's slow now, but we're all hoping for reruns now.

Redravenous said...

- Spader is one hell of an actor. When telling Liz killing Sam was among the hardest of things he's had to do, I could palpably feel the pain to get the words out.

I think he may make wearing suit vests cool again.

The neck scar, I feel certain was not there before this episode. Or if it was, maybe it explains the head tilt.

- as Fergy mentioned, Donald's speech about taking a new path was almost as intriguing as he and Red sharing the same blood type. They have slowly been building the importance of Ressler's role to the overall story but right from the first episode he has been portrayed as a capable and kick ass FBI agent. I can't see a romance between Liz and Donald, but a strong bond seems to be happening.

- So, if Red's new neck scar is due to changing identity then he wouldn't be the real Raymond Reddington. I don't buy that because his roommate & Fitch both knew him before. There may be more to Red's story, a secret life. If he was "the" dissident, then we can assume he was undercover, probably in Russia. Maybe his surface cover was as a naval officer but in fact he was in Russia to destabilize the country to speed up the inevitability of the end of the Cold War. Maybe he had two lives, a wife & family back home & the life which brought him together with Berlin's daughter. The girl is dead in the photo. Berlin says he got the watch with the photo in it, learning she was dead. The Stewmaker was commissioned to cut her up in pieces. So is Liz related to Berlin, why Tom does not to kill her? The fake Berlin wanted him to kill her because he had no connection to her other than knowing she was important to Red. The girl in the photo, and dancing the ballet, seemed too young for Red to have had a relationship with, unless he knew her earlier. Why would Berlin keep a picture of his dead daughter in the watch? In his own words, in hospital, he said the man wanders, searches for the man responsible for his daughter's death. Searching out the dissident, the man she fell in love with? If she was young, and Berlin believes he seduced her and by getting involved caused her ultimate demise, he could blame that man for her death. If that man was Red, it is possible he never positively knew what became of her until he saw her photo, and didn't know her father ever escaped Siberia. When she was captured, maybe the house was set on fire and Red rescued their secret daughter. Possibly nobody knew they had a daughter, which is why Red wants that secret kept, even from Liz. Red had to keep it secret from his wife and his real life as a naval officer. By the end of the finale, Red was suspecting who Berlin is. Especially being that the real and fake Berlin's both worked for the KGB. If Berlin knows Liz is possibly his granddaughter it may be why he told his story to her and Donald. She was captivated when he told the story and then pensive about him when sitting on the steps with Red. A connection made between them? Still, why does his dead daughter look so young? How does Christmas Eve factor into it all? The third element, Fitch and his group's secret, all collided around the same time to bring Red's life to ruin?

- Tom. Why did he just graze Red's arm? I rewound several times to be sure Liz didn't make him take such a bad shot. Again Red puts his own life at risk, and answers to his burning questions on hold, to save Liz's life by shooting fake Berlin and lowering his gun. He can't be dead. Gina may play a part, but real clue or mislead, that's the question. If she's not, Liz must have saved him, maybe with Mr. Kaplan's help. Liz says to Red: "please go, I'll finish it - this is between us." But then she's leaving an empty house and going to Red, no sign of Tom.

Lot's to say, Serves me right for waiting & putting everything out at once. Who'll read a post this long?

JBiltz said...

I’m not really buying Red the dissident. The time line just seems wrong. The girl in the photo is around 12 years old and was taken in December 1990. Red would have been around 18 when she was born and that would be a real reach for Red being her father any where except the USA. Red was not in the Navy then, he had yet to go to the Naval Academy.

I have zero faith in Berlin’s origin story. It might be true but as of now I have no reason to believe this mystery wrapped in an enigma would just spill his life story to the FBI in general and Liz in particular. He knows whatever he tells them Red is going to learn. He knows his cover story is not going to survive long. They now have his DNA, pictures and he is a one arm man. Why spill his life story?

I don’t believe he is related to Liz. That is the big story and I don’t think Berlin is going survive another season. I’m not even sure he is going to survive the next episode he is in. My guess is he dies first episode or is killed in the midseason two parter ending. He was the catalyst that forced Red to turn himself in but in the big picture of a 5 to 7 season run he is not that important.

One thing you have to realize is that what the fake Berlin was doing was panicking. The whole operation went to hell when the plane crashed. As far as the fake Berlin knew the real Berlin was dead or captured. The real Berlin had no way to communicate so the fake Berlin went to a scorched earth policy and decided to kill everything. What happened was not necessarily The Plan.

JBiltz said...

No way to know this so here is my wild guess. The plane was Russian being used in a plan to recover Russian criminals in the Americas. So there had to be a Russian prisoner to pick up in the US for the plane to come here. My guess is the prisoner to pick up in the USA was Gina. She was grabbed by the Russians and was going to be returned. It could have been anyone though, I just like to think it was Gina.

JBiltz said...

I grew up reading comic books. I can't help but notice how like a comic book the whole show is. Its been stated that every week they try to create a Batman villain. The 70/30 split of current villain and story arch is like that as well. My nephew was in town over the Memorial weekend and is a big comic book reader as well agreed its a very comic book show.

Redravenous said...

JBiltz - I have to say that I always read your comments thoroughly and relish what you share. Being raised in a military family and communities I have a lot of respect for those who have experienced the diverse and challenging events and situations that come along with the job and military life.

I read a lot of comic books, it's how I learned to read. When my son was slow to start reading I encouraged the action comics, like Batman. It's a good observation, the show does have that kind of hero / antihero / villain vibe.

I'm not able to reconcile the age of the girl in the photo. How does a girl so young fall in love with a dissident, and thus gets in trouble politically? When Berlin tells the story he says "the" dissident and almost spits it out in what seems like a personal repulsion to the man. So if the girl in the photo was Red's daughter (as we used to speculate) does Berlin carry it in his watch like a trophy?

What I'm confused about was Berlin actually a captured prisoner on the plane? The others say he was in charge so why was he handcuffed to a guard
And why would he cut off his own hand?

Basil said...

Hi Redravenous! Count me among the ones so happy to see you back here. And yes, I did read your long post (that didn’t seem all that long to me). One of the many of things I love about this site is that it can accommodate longer threads and deeper discussions than some of the other Blacklist related sites. And it is a hoot more fun too! (Thanks, Chomps)

JBiltz…I keep thinking about your reservation in just accepting Berlin’s story as true. I am very persuaded in that direction. Like you say, it just doesn’t make sense why he would tell the truth about himself. Not logical.

Just like it isn’t logical that Liz “raise herself” when Sam was such a loving parent or that, given her age, she had time to complete the education and professional experience we’re told she has. Logical like stewiegirl is too young (at least in the picture) to have been romping around with dissidents at the end of the cold war.

I find myself getting frustrated when trying to analyze stuff from the show in the light of what would makes sense logically and realistically. So I’m letting go of that (for a bit) and instead focusing on what is, for me, firmer ground regarding Berlin’s story. Creativity. I’m not looking at whether it is logical or makes sense in terms of the real world…timelines and such (although I really like that!). Instead I’m focusing (for now) on why the writers chose to put that story out to us. Because this is crystal clear to me about Berlin’s story: the writers wanted it there. It almost stuck out like a sore thumb. There was purposeful decision in putting that story there.

So my question now is: Why did the writers want that story there at just that moment and in those circumstances? Were they trying to lead us in a direction? Were they opening up new doors they can travel through at any time? I know the answer to those questions is yes….but I’m yearning for specifics. I want to delve into the minds of our writers and their creative process….specifically why that particular “Berlin story”……anyone with me?

And….a final question….why does he call himself Berlin? B Radley (hi B Radley…glad you’re here and posting…hope to hear more from you!)…B Radley noted that the last call on Gina’s phone was from the physical location of Berlin.

Berlin and the end of the cold war……most intriguing…..intriguing to anyone else? I’d love to hear what you think, my friends….whether about this or anything Blacklist related…or about comic books….or about….whatever. I just so enjoy your company.

I also think it is time to wander over to the "bad guys" thread and start some in depth discussion about Berlin....I thuoght he cut off his hand because if he cut off the guard's hand everyone would suspect he was....well....Berlin. Whoever that is!

Charmed said...

Redravenous- Hello my friend. So glad to see you back with lots of comments. I've got some catching up to do.

Carolina Girl said...

Is see everyone still can't let this go just like me. I can't get enough of this even from other sites, I love to read all the comments. Here are a few things I have gleaned and could possibly make sense.

1) What is Stewiegirl was Berlin's daughter and truly was the age she looks in her picture. She was involved with Red, who was a sleeper agent helping to bring down
Soviet Union, but only in an informent type capacity. She is imprisoned. Red feels responsible and gets her out of country bringing her back to US and to his home. He has a wife and young daughter, Liz. This would fit the time near the of the end of the cold war. Liz is very young, so that is why she doesn't bring a sister up. My sister is 7 years older than me and I don't have memories of her until much older. Stew girl may not have only been with them for a few years. Maybe someone wanted her assassinated because she knew too much ( maybe someone who wanted to punish Berlin for his daughter being a traitor or someone involved on the US side like Fitch who didn't want covers blown? ).

2) Could Red have led a double life? That would explain the flashbacks of a young girl with long light curls and how different Liz looked as a young girl from pics of her with Sam.

3) I still keep thinking that Red was involved with these Blacklisters in some way personally. Such as The Alchemist. Remember the family that he made look like they were all killed in a home invasion or something like that. Was that a hint to what could have happened to Red's family? My gut tells me the wife and Stewgirl are not dead.

Redravenous said...

Thank goodness some of you are still active here. After re-watching the episode yesterday I was hungry for discussion. Sometimes a tv show, even the Blacklist has to take a back seat to life but it was always scratching at my brain.

Thank you Basil, I honestly missed you all. It might be logical that Berlin tells the story, even if only partly truthful because he wanted Liz, and maybe Donald as well, to know his version. I agree there are many illogical loose ends that we want to see tied up. We've commented so often we don't want them to go unexplained. Time to get from the post office to NYC might be stretching logic, but is not the same as many of the things you mentioned. Definitely the writers want the story told, they enacted the prison scenes. I really tried to figure out if the man in the cell (the father) and Berlin were one in the same but they were careful not to show his face. Considering Berlin's unkempt look you'd think he just escaped but Red said he started interfering in his business years ago. It is always a timeline and identity guessing game!

It is the use of the word dissident to describe the man she fell in love that I find very curious.

Clearly we have seen Red show thoughtful emotion at the girl in the Stewmaker's album. And definitely for the girl in his memory at the ballet. We think she is one in the same, so we assume that Red has very deep feelings of loss. What if she isn't dead. Our only clues are that the photo was in the album of dead people and Berlin's story of the dead daughter whose picture in in the watch.

It makes sense Gina works for Berlin, we know Tom does, and the idea that the plane was going to pick her up is viable. Why else were they going to land at the airport? Tom seemed concerned about the accident when he came through the door to meet fake Berlin but his questions were brushed off. Maybe he was worried about Gina.

Carolina Girl said...

I know what you mean, Redravenous ... I got so excited when I saw your post and some of the other recent ones.
I am just grasping at this point to go back over everything and going to order the season so we can watch again with everyone's theories in mind. I am sort of beyond the Who's Her Daddy thing because I think Red is. Her going back to him at the end confirmed it for me. I really don't think it has to be that complicated. The rest of the story intrigues me more. I sure hope everyone keeps the discussion going. There has to be something we have all missed about Stewiegirl and Mrs. Reddington. Was it on here but did someone say something about his wife being #1 on the Blacklist? I like that idea !!!

JBiltz said...

I'm going to take the stance that the girl in the photo looked 12 years old and they used a 12 year old girl in the picture so the girl in the photo is 12 years old.

I'm discounting everything in the pilot. This is generally a safe thing to do and I think they have backed off from and contradicted quite a lot of it. I think the whole raised herself thing was from the original pilot script and has been thrown out the window. That whole speech doesn't figure into anything as far as I'm concerned. I just disregard it.

JBiltz said...


Redravenous said
- Tom. Why did he just graze Red's arm? I rewound several times to be sure Liz didn't make him take such a bad shot. Again Red puts his own life at risk, and answers to his burning questions on hold, to save Liz's life by shooting fake Berlin and lowering his gun. He can't be dead. Gina may play a part, but real clue or mislead, that's the question. If she's not, Liz must have saved him, maybe with Mr. Kaplan's help. Liz says to Red: "please go, I'll finish it - this is between us." But then she's leaving an empty house and going to Red, no sign of Tom.

The obvious reason Tom did not shoot better and kill Red is that that would have ended the show. But in the context of what is going on it was pretty obvious Tom wanted to shoot Red, particularly since Red was coming for him but he didn't. So he must have been under orders not to. The question is whose orders and why.

Redravenous said...

JBiltz you made me laugh out loud. My husband said what? what? That would have been quite a finale - like who shot JR? - but instead is Red dead? Had Tom taken a good shot and Red was on the ground. So we tune into the fall premiere and find out he's actually dead. No Red Reddington - No James Spader. Can you imagine. He didn't take a kill shot on Red for a reason but Red didn't think so, he wanted to finish Tom off. I respect that he left it to Liz.

Good point about the pilot JBlitz. It was the only episode that I only saw once, not realizing what an addict I was to become. Maybe that serves me well because I don't remember many details.

I plan to purchase the season and watch it over t he summer. Carolina Girl I hope that if others do the same thing that maybe we will still have discussions even if repetitive to what we posted during the season.

Chompstick, do you think a summer 14 stream would be a good idea? What we've learned and generated new ideas by re-watching the series. I can see myself taking a rainy weekend and watching the episodes back to back, making lists and comparing notes and coming up with a whole list of contradictions, loose ends, clues, false clues etc.

The Blacklist is the first show I've watched faithfully on a weekly basis since Happy Days when I was a teenager.

fangirl said...

Redravenous said...
----JBiltz you made me laugh out loud. My husband said what? what? That would have been quite a finale - like who shot JR? -


lol! So funny.

--- so, he wanted to finish Tom off. I respect that he left it to Liz.

I respect that too, but Liz messed up ... again. It's so frustrating. At the same time, I'm really glad Tom Bond will live to spy another day :) He was a lot more fun when stopped pretending to be Mr. Nice Guy.


---Good point about the pilot JBlitz. It was the only episode that I only saw once, not realizing what an addict I was to become.

Same here. Hubby and I noticed it on the tv schedule, it sounded like, "Ok, we'll give it a try." And wow, we really did not expect to like it, really.

fangirl said...

Anonymous Carolina Girl said...
----My gut tells me the wife and Stewgirl are not dead.


I'm with you, CG! Not so sure about Stewgirl, but only because I've avoided reading anything Blacklist related, 'cause I'm a rabid anti-spoilite.

But Red's wife, definitely, for a long time I've theorized that she's alive, and the writers are waiting to spring her on Red at the most inopportune moment :)

I can just imagine the look on his face, and he's probably going to say something laugh-out-loud funny :)

Chompstick said...

That's a big jump...Happy Days to The Blacklist! Have you seen any of Spader's work before? I think you told me you started watching some Boston Legal reruns, didn't you?

I'm not sure what you mean by a summer 14 stream...? A number of people have said they want to rewatch the whole season this summer. Presumably NBC will air reruns at some point but I imagine we'd all agree it'd be better to just start watching the eps in order. It would be great to be able to watch them at somewhat the same time.

At a minimum, we seem to have Redrav, JBiltz, Basil, Carolina Girl, Naike, and myself consistently posting.

Chompstick said...

Redrav, I've been reading your month's-worth-of-posts-in-one-day, but I must admit it's making my head swirl. I'm given up on commenting about Berlin and his daughter. I just can't get a good grasp on it. I got a good laugh out of your JR cliffhanger...Red's dead, end of show.

- Basil, are you the first one to mention the plane coming for the escaped Gina? I agree. It seems so obvious, doesn't it?

- So if Tom didn't take a kill shot at Red, who wants him alive and why? We know Fitch doesn't want him dead because them something of value to Fitch is revealed. Who else wants to keep him alive?

- Redrav, I've been all over the Ressler bandwagon. Maybe I need to start a fan page. I really hope they tap into all the potential of the Ressler character next season.

- JB said, "The obvious reason Tom did not shoot better and kill Red is that that would have ended the show." Once again, you have provided me with a new wrote of the week!

- Basil, your whole post on June 4, 9:34am - yeah that!

- Not adding myself to this equation, but I definitely think we have the most intelligent Blacklist discussions anywhere!

- Someone was talking about going back and reading recaps again. If you haven't read them, the ones at EW are really good, but I can only find back through ep 11, no earlier. EW Recaps

Redravenous said...

Chompstick sorry about the month of posts in one day - but I'm glad when I came up for air I came back to read everything everyone else had to share. Then .... There was no stopping me :-)

Fangirl - so agree with you that when Tom stopped being the phoney sweet husband he became so much more interesting.

Summer 2014 - I'm assuming there will be more to come.

Redravenous said...

Summers that is..... Summer 2014 - summer 2015 etc. that we'll want to keep the interest simmering.

Chompstick said...

Ah, summer'14, that makes so much sense, which is precisely why it went over my head.

Would the consensus like me to start a new page for rehash discussion on season 1 episodes, adding anything new we pick up on? Is there any practical way for is to view reruns at approx the same time.

$34.99 Amazon.com instant video, all Season 1 (invid eps $1.99)

$48.99 Amazon.com, no release date provided

Charmed said...

It's funny that I have never looked forward to reruns so much for any other show. It appears others of you feel the same.

Redravenous, I really thought you may have been like me, watching the little trailers for the Blacklist from summer to the pilot and beyond. But you did beat me to the blog, as soon as they started recaps, which should have been after the pilot.

I can really tell a difference in your posts,which I've always enjoyed. You seem more confident now. I'm glad.

JBiltz- I have a question for you on the Off Topic page.
It's actually for anyone to answer.

Redravenous said...

Charmed, I have to admit my first blog experience was 3 episodes into The Blacklist when I found the WSJ site that Jason had started the week earlier. I was looking for answers and sure got them. I still don't blog about anything else or anywhere else, other than when we went to Logan's site for awhile.

I have been watching Fargo the series but don't blog about that. It's the mystery about The Blacklist that resulted in my finding all of you.

Chompstick said...

Redrav, I started a new page, Summer Rerun Viewing. It's at the bottom of the topics list. I'll move it up later; I need to be on my computer, not my tablet. Thanks for the idea.

How do you like having all the separate topic pages?

Charmed said...

Please visit the Off Topic page when you have a chance, y'all.

Chompstick said...

Redrav, just kidding about the month-of-posts. I'm so glad you're back into it.

Chompstick said...

JB - I moved your post about the DVD release to the new Summer Rerun Viewing page, listed at the bottom of the Topics list.

Basil said...

Redrav.....you really got me thinking when you pointed out that the writers very much wanted to present Berlin's story because it was accompanied by the vignette of the colonel in the cell....I had some thoughts about this but I think I will start that conversation over at the "bad guys" thread....hope others will join us in that conversation!

JBiltz said...

What are people's most and lest favorite episodes? For me the two best are the Anslo Garick episodes. My least favorite would be Madeline Pratt. Next would be a tough call between The Judge and the Kingmaker. I could go into more detail on why but I think I'll leave it her for now.

Chompstick said...

Great topic. I've been wanting to put a poll on here but I thought it might be better when more people are around.

My favorites, by far, are both Anslo Garricks. Next would be Mako Tanida. I really like the development of Ressler in that episode.

My last favorite is definitely The Good Samaritan. The torture was awful and Frank Whaley freaked me out.

JB, you listed The Judge and Kingmaker as runners-up. Is that for least or favorite?

Charmed said...

I loved the pilot and both Anslo Garrick's I & 2. I enjoy Frank Whaley so much as an actor. Remember "Field of Dreams", "Pulp Fiction", "The Doors" and so many more?

But although he was believable in The Good Samaritan, I don't think he had a good role on what is one of my least favorite episodes.

I didn't care for most of The Kingmaker and deleted The Stewmaker, So automatically. I'm still mad at myself.

I liked Madeline Pratt for the same reason some people won't like it.

I've got to think more. This is great

Chompstick said...

Unbelievably, The Kingmaker appears to have left no impact on me because I can't remember anything about it. I read a synopsis at IMDB-nothing rings a bell. Read the WSJ recap-I recall the stuff with Liz/Sam/Red, but nothing of the procedural parts. I know I've watched all 22 episodes, so...What the heck?

Clearly not one of my favorites because it must have bored me to sleep. Nothing's going to knock Frank Whaley from the bottom spot.

JBiltz said...

The Judge and Kingmaker were tied for second worst. My problem with the Kingmaker was every time the actor sniffed it took me right out of the scene and reminded me I was watching a TV show instead of just watching a TV show. The Judge just was a boring show with no reason to really watch it and seemed very contrived.

The Good Samaritan to me was redeemed by Red running around killing everyone.

Anslo Garrick was definitely the best. Top episodes after that would be Berlin, the pilot and the Pavlovich Brothers.

Chompstick said...

Ah yes, Pavlovich brothers was a very exciting episode. And the pilot. I didn't realize Red's revenge murder spree was in the Kingmaker...that was fun. Hmm, I seem to have enjoyed the most violent shows. Not a reflection of real life, I promise!

Basil said...

Wow, JBiltz...great topic!

However, for me, it isn't about what episode I liked best, but instead what parts of the show I like best. I'm not so drawn to the procedural stuff and the individual Blacklisters. I just wait for those Red and Liz moments. I've also enjoyed the development of Tom and Ressler's characters.

But if Tom were holding a gun to my head (lol and I had to pick the best episodes)...I'd probably join the gange and say Anslo Garrick....but I just hated the torture part. Liked the pilot too.

Chompstick said...

The procedurals I've liked the most have been the pilot, Anslo of course, Frederick Barnes - not so much the story, but I love Robert Sean Leonard. House MD is my all-time favorite show, and he was great in Dead Poets Society.

The weakest for me are The Alchemist, Cyprus Agency, Ivan, and obviously the Kingmaker since I can't tell you what it was about. I've now gone back to read Jason's recap and still don't remember the procedural part of the show.

JBiltz said...

Chompstick said...
Ah yes, Pavlovich brothers was a very exciting episode. And the pilot. I didn't realize Red's revenge murder spree was in the Kingmaker...that was fun. Hmm, I seem to have enjoyed the most violent shows. Not a reflection of real life, I promise!

Red running around shooting everyone was in The Good Samaritan.

Chompstick said...

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks.

JBiltz said...

I don't watch lawyer, doctor or cop shows. So I'm not a fan of procedurals for the most part; it also means I don't watch much network television. The only cop show I watch is Justified which is about the opposite of a procedural. The only reason I started watching it was it was Elmore Leonard.

They have done a few good episodes that were a good procedural though, Gina Z comes to mind. The Stewmaker was almost all procedural as well.

JBiltz said...

This is how I rank them. Some of them are tough calls on which I like more because I like them for different reasons

Blacklist s1 ep 09 Anslo Garrick1
Blacklist s1 ep 10 Anslo Garrick2
Blacklist s1 ep 21 Berlin
Blacklist s1 ep 22 Berlin
Blacklist s1 ep 19 Pavlovlich Brothers
Blacklist s1 ep 01 Pilot
Blacklist s1 ep 16 Mako Tanida
Blacklist s1 ep 06 Gina Zanetakos
Blacklist s1 ep 18 Milton Bobbit
Blacklist s1 ep 05 The Courier
Blacklist s1 ep 03 Wujing
Blacklist s1 ep 04 The Stewmaker
Blacklist s1 ep 02 The Freelancer
Blacklist s1 ep 13 The Cyprus Agency
Blacklist s1 ep 17 Ivan
Blacklist s1 ep 11 The Good Samaratan Killer
Blacklist s1 ep 12 The Alchemist
Blacklist s1 ep 07 Frederick Barnes
Blacklist s1 ep 08 General Ludd
Blacklist s1 ep 15 The Judge.
Blacklist s1 ep 20 The Kingmaker
Blacklist s1 ep 14 Madeline Pratt.

JBiltz said...

There are only 4 shows that I consider bad and even General Ludd gave us Sam's death.

I was watching a commentary on one of the Supernatural or Farscape episodes a few years ago and one of the directors said he worked with a legendary director and when they were done they had produced an awful episode of TV. The director told him every show makes 2 great episodes and two awful episodes. Sometimes things just do not come together and sometimes they come together like magic. The quality of the show is determined in the other 20 episodes.

Charmed said...

JBiltz- Your comments above regarding the quality of the episodes make a lot of sense to me. The Blacklist always seems to have redeeming qualities even in each of the least favorite episodes, so I'm not unhappy.

But I can't even think of 2 awful episodes of Justified.

Redravenous said...

Interesting topic, glad I found some time to sneak a peek. For me, The Judge and General Ludd were the least captivating. The Good Samaritan was an eye opener for me. It was the first time I saw the really nasty side of the Red character, he was judge, jury and executioner and made everyone pay the ultimate price. Before that episode I saw him as tough but an essentially good man. Madeline Pratt wouldn't be so low on my list, I enjoyed it. I like the more romantic exchanges with Red and another woman, rather than Liz for a change. But it is the story he told her (great acting) and how he tricked her to get what he wanted that I really enjoyed.

Liked The Pavlovich Brothers except the end when they all got shot. I thought that was a weak scene and such a contradiction to their capabilities in other jobs, like on the bridge in the pilot.

Can you believe it, I can't even remember The Kingmaker episode? I'm glad Chompstick forgot as well, or I'd be worried I'm going senile.

Chompstick said...

Redrav, you're assuming I'M not going senile. We might both be. You're right about The Pavlovich Brothers; I thought the end was disappointing, too. They would be useful to have around if Red wanted to use their services in the future. You didn't state your favorite.

JBiltz said...

JBiltz- Your comments above regarding the quality of the episodes make a lot of sense to me. The Blacklist always seems to have redeeming qualities even in each of the least favorite episodes, so I'm not unhappy.

But I can't even think of 2 awful episodes of Justified.

Well, I can think of some not very good episodes of Justified, mainly in the first two seasons. I don't think I would call any of the Blacklist episodes as awful. Some were not as good. But even my bottom four episodes had good stuff in them. Essentially Red was carrying the show in those episodes and it was not enough. But some of the most memorable scenes of the season were in those shows.

Chompstick said...

What is Justified about? Any actors known for their previous work??

Redravenous said...

Hmmm, my favourite episode is tough. I would have to say the pilot because having only seen it the once and not started blogging until the third episode I didn't critique it like the other episodes. I was captivated, largely by Master Spader, and his character but also by the mystery introduced with Red's story and his refusal to work with anyone other than Liz. I was one of those that drew a connection to Silence of the Lamb and that intrigued me.

Too bad it's so quiet, I would love to hear from others which episodes they liked/dislike and why.

Chomps, have you remembered / learned anything about the Kingmaker yet? JBiltz's comment about his sniffing didn't trigger anything in this old brain.

JBiltz said...

Justified begins with US Deputy Marshal Raylan Givens walking into a Miami restaurant to confront a cartel gun thug who Raylan had gave 24 hours to get out of Miami or Raylan would kill him and time was up. After a brief conversation the thug draws a gun and Raylan kills him. Despite the fact that the shooting was "justified" since the other guy drew first no one is happy with Raylan since you can't do that anymore. He is shipped off to Kentucky where he was born and raised and swore he would never go back to. He comes into immediate contact and conflict with Boyd Crowder who Raylan dug coal with when they were 19. Boyd is involved with the skin heads and is currently robbing banks by blowing up a car across town then robbing a bank while the police respond to the bomb. The show is about these two characters and their various escapades and killings (lots of killings) as they dance around each other sometimes helping each other and sometimes trying to destroy each other as they deal with low and high level, stupid and smart criminals in the Kentucky underworld. Its the first show to get Elmore Leonard right, which is to say smart and funny mixed with the stupid and violent.

Raylan wears a cowboy hat and is really the last of the old time gunfighter lawmen. Boyd is smooth talking, well read, self educated and a self described outlaw.

Chompstick said...

Sounds interesting. Is the setting present day? You say Boyd is involved with skinheads. Does he identify as a skinhead himself?

JBiltz said...

I think it was more a scam than anything else but he does have the tattoos. He gets into a lot of stuff.

Charmed said...

For more Justified and whatever, I'll be visiting the Off Topic page soon.

Charmed said...

Entertainment Weekly
The 50 Best TV Scenes This Year

#45 The Blacklist Ep. 9 "Anslo Garrick"
SCENE Red tells an injured Donald why it's not their time to die.

WHY What began as another TV procedural has blossomed into this breakout hit, all due to Spader, who dazzles with his effortless magnetism and keen ability to make Red relatable, like this moment in a cell.

Followed by: Bates Motel, Archer, The Simpsons, Sleepy Hollow and Trophy Wife.

Watch the scenes you may have missed at ew.com/bestscenes.

Two other good scenes: #24 The Killing- (Peter Sarsgaard) Ray walks toward his execution. #27 Justified- Test of the 21 foot rule.

"Limited to one scene or sketch per show from June 1, 2013 - May 31, 2014."
I still don't feel much better.


timetraveler said...

Because of time constraints (I have to get ready for work), I'm only listing my top five. Hopefully I'll sit down and place the rest in order in the near future.

1. Anslo Garrick 1
2. Anslo Garrick 2
3. The Good Samaritan (Solely for the Red storyline...on rewatches I fast forward through the procedural parts.)
4. Berlin 1
5. Berlin 2

Carolina Girl aka MP said...

We'll I did it Cracklister peeps ... Bought Season One on Amazon Prime! Forget Hulu, only has the last 5 maybe. I had to promise the hubby that I wouldn't sit here all day watching but it was worth it just to watch the Pilot !!!! We realized that we indeed had never seen it ... REALLY, you say? REALLY ... Sort of shameful, if you ask me. Makes me want to indulge in a few Moon Pies ... Lol !!!

So on a serious note. It was really good! I would stop it every once in awhile and say to my husband " Ok ...
What have we learned? " he really thinks I am wacko.
I think that pilot is just full of goodies. As I was telling Evey Edge on another page ... He tells Lizzie that her father was a career criminal ( which I knew ) but that her mother died alone and in disgrace or something like that! Wow, is that juicy or what? Only time I have ever heard a reference to her mother and it is negative. Evey mentioned a possibility of Red being her father out of wedlock ... That sparks my interest a but after hearing his comment.

The other thing that stood out to me was again how he usually gets something from these Blacklisters. As in this this one getting the chemical weapon from Ranko Z. And so on. Why such a common thread of weapons be they chemical, biological, nuclear? Is that just the nature of the business? Could it also have something to do with the mystery in general? Any thoughts?

Chompstick said...

This is the longest we've gone without a post. I know it's summer, but where is everyone?

JBiltz said...

The reruns are not helping. We are at the weakest part of the season. I've been checking in every day.

Naike said...

Chomps, one, no four words as an explanation: too much work, unfortunately. But I have the whole BSG website off-line now. So, whenever I have to travel to go from one assignment to the next and services will be unavailable, I will try to make good use of the dead zone and write something for the site or in response to the other posters.
I'm just going to start with your last excellent writing on the front-page.

Everyone, I will try to reply to every question/message on the other pages, but it will come slowly, little bit by little bit, as I have to make the most of short breaks from work.

JBiltz said...

So last season Red was operating in secret on his intent on using the Blacklist to find Berlin. He did some other things of course. He aimed the first few Blacklisters as establishing how useful he could be. He aimed a few at Liz to change her world view and opinion on things. At least once, second episode for example he did both. But second season we start out with Berlin being out there and everyone on the task force wanting Berlin at least as badly as Red. That is going to be a whole different dynamic than what we had through season 1.

JBiltz said...

There is a Beyond the Blacklist for episode 22 up on youtube.

Carolina Girl said...

Hi everyone! Thought I would check in, it's been awhile.
Boring is right. We continue to watch through season one again and tonight was Frederick Barnes. Of course this was the episode where Red makes the " Set the world on fire " comment. Which now I can see that it ties in with the destruction of his family home in Maryland. Also the growth chart that Red exposes, top line being 3 yrs. and then the vision of the red haired young girl. I think they are telling us it is her that was 3 , so it is either Liz or another child, but can't be the ballerina girl or Stewiegirl girl! Or it could mean there were 2 children. He looks sad when he recalls her, so could be that ... Hmmmmm, you know what? I have no idea .... It could mean anything! I am so frustrated. Bottom line is they just didn't give us enough this season. This is why people hate to start watching this kind of program. Does anyone else feel the same???

Naike said...

JBiltz on June 27, 2014 at 6:39 PM said: "... But second season we start out with Berlin being out there and everyone on the task force wanting Berlin at least as badly as Red. That is going to be a whole different dynamic than what we had through season 1."

Yes, JBiltz, absolutely. Im very much looking forward to it. And Megan in her Monte-Carlo Interview has already teased us that the writers are as far in their writings for season two that they have already set up the storyline for the mid-season two-part episode, the "Super-Bowl-and-Transition-to-the-new-Thursday-Timeslot" episode, building up the whole season two around that two-part episode. Megan says that they basically wrote a "feature film" and that we can expect an "Anslo-Garrick-on-Speed" two-part episode. Well, well, well, bring it on already, I feel so ready for it. ;o)

Almost unthinkable today how much time is still ahead of us until that episode is going to air.

Here is the link to the Monte-Carlo Interview of Megan and Diego again: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/news/a576887/the-blacklist-stars-talk-season-2-relaunch-watch.html#~oHkL8UoQuMxcgN

And don't forget that Red has already hinted at the bigger picture surrounding the mystery of Berlin. Red to Liz in "Berlin, conclusion", when meeting for the first time after Red has successfully escaped from Walter Gary Martin's FBI custody and after Meera had been killed at the night club:

"Right now, our task is to identify our enemy — our enemy today. Berlin wasn't the only prisoner on that plane, and whoever wanted him wanted the others, as well. You need to find out who that someone is."

Remember this, right?

This is going to turn out to be so much bigger than "just Berlin"!

Naike said...

Carolina Girl on June 29, 2014 at 11:54 PM said: "... I am so frustrated. Bottom line is they just didn't give us enough this season. This is why people hate to start watching this kind of program. Does anyone else feel the same???"

Yes, Carolina Girl, totally. I think it takes effort from the viewer's part to dedicate its-self to a TV show such as The Blacklist. It certainly requires some patience and even tenacity, perseverance. But I would think it's an even more difficult task for the show creators, the show runners and the writers. You want to keep the interest of the viewers in the mysteries surrounding the show on a constant high level, so that they would not only watch the show, but continue to watch the show even after a break. I would think it's a very thin line of not giving away too much too soon, so that you could stretch one story in as much seasons as possible, and giving away just the necessary so that the viewers would be coming back to watch the show even after a hiatus. I know everyone in the industry is still searching for that magic formula. Which evidently hasn't been found yet, as we can experience so many attempts at solving this question as the existence of so many different shows would prove. Shorter seasons, completely re-setting a show after every season, naming the end of a show right from the start of the show, just three examples of how the studios try to find the right show-design. Which probably doesn't even exist, because TV viewers are individuals and we will probably never be able to completely predict an individual's behaviour, yet alone the behaviour of a great number of individuals summed up. Many scientific areas are dedicating themselves to this topic since quite some time.

I'm really curious about how many seasons The Blacklist will be able to last.

Chompstick said...

Season 2 will have a whole different feel. Like you say JB, everyone is focused on Berlin. It's not likely that Red is going to be giving the FBI another blacklister to go after while Berlin's walking around. And once they do bring in the procedural stories, they will seem so extraneous and possibly annoying in that they are taking time away from the heart of the show.

Naike quoted, from the finale, "Right now, our task is to identify our enemy — our enemy today. Berlin wasn't the only prisoner on that plane, and whoever wanted him wanted the others, as well. You need to find out who that someone is."

I hadn't remembered this. Sooo, maybe The Adversary is the one looking for Berlin, too?

Naike said...

JBiltz, : I'm rewatching the shows and I'm coming to the conclusion that an awful lot of women died. Every woman on the show with any lines to speak of and in more than two episodes died. Jolene, Audrey, Meera and Diane.

JBiltz, May 19, 2014 at 10:20 AM: As of now the two women competing for most lines by a surviving recurring female are the doctor from the CDC and the teacher who took care of Tom in the third episode. That is how bad it is.

Chompstick, May 19, 2014 at 11:39 AM: Not five minutes before coming on this page I was talking to someone about the female deaths. It's not just the number of regular or recurring female characters that have been killed, it's the disproportionate number compared to the men. Meera, Diane, Jolene, Audrey, and Luli. I included Luli because even though she rarely spoke, she was a strong woman who appeared in every episode and her death was significant. So that is 5 of 6 women killed. Amazing, really.

Ok, this cannot really improve the women's situation in a significant way on the show, but I noticed there is another recurring female character, who had a line to speak from time to time, who has been in more than one episode and who is still alive on the show. Amazing, I know, right?...!

Poor thing didn't even get a name, but we actually saw her for the first time as early as in the pilot: She is the FBI data analyst working at the Post Office. The name of the actress is Jennifer Kim and per imdb she has been in six episodes of season one, as: FBI Tech / ND Tech / ND Agent / Tech / Analyst:
- Mako Tanida (2014) ... FBI Tech
- The Cyprus Agency (2014) ... FBI Tech
- The Alchemist (2014) ... ND Tech
- The Good Samaritan (2014) ... ND Agent
- Anslo Garrick (2013) ... Tech
- Pilot (2013) ... Analyst (War Room)

For the little they let her do on the show in season one, I actually like her. Maybe with Meera gone and with Aram promoted to the main cast, she will become a recurring guest with a more prominent role. Let's keep our fingers crossed there will be another important female character besides Liz and on the "Good Guys, er, Gals" side.

Naike said...

Basil, May 19, 2014 at 1:12 PM: ... What is it with this show and women? A while ago I posted an exploration of the broader theme of wives and mothers on the show…since it seems related to this discussion I’ll just repost it here…for any value it might contain….
... Emphasis on Father/Child Relationships
...


Basil, re-watching season one, I was thinking about this again. You know another mother who is never mentioned during the whole season? Red's mother!

In return, Red (casually) mentions his father on two occasions:

— "The Judge"
Red meets with the Cowboy for the first time in the Cowboy's car:
Red to the Cowboy: "What is this? A '78? You got a picture? My father loved Cadillacs."
— "Berlin Conclusion"
Red had just been brought to an FBI Black Site in New York by Walter Gary Martin and his team:
Red to Walter Gary Martin: "That stuff you use in your hair-- is that Brylcreem? My father used Brylcreem."

You know why I mention Red's parents? Because I have read comments from other posters thinking that the Red we as viewers know as of today could really be somebody else. And one possibility for this could be a witness protection program far down the road. As far in the past as something Red's parents could have been affected by. Hm, maybe too farfetched. But the fact remains that once again a mother seems in-existent on The Blacklist. I have no idea if this could be of any significance, though.

JBiltz said...

I never noticed it before but Ressler, Liz and Cooper would all be dead if it was not for Red. Liz would have been killed by the drug kingpin. Cooper would have been killed the Judge. Mako Tanida would have killed Ressler. You could make a case that Ressler might have survived and and got Tanida but probably not. None of them were cases that Red gave them. They were things that came out of their past independent of Red.

Chompstick said...

That's a very interesting observation. At first I was going to say that they wouldn't have been at risk if it weren't for Red's cases, but I see they were all unrelated to him. So they all owe their lives to him...




Rori said...

HI ALL! B2-30 (means COUNTDOWN "Blacklist, Series 2 minus 30 days"

And just in time, lookie who won a well-deserved award. James Spader won Entertainment Weekly's award for best actor in a series.

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20300978_20842677,00.html#30201644

Hope everyone is winding their summer holidays down nicely. See you in September!

Chompstick said...

Hi Rori! Yay, Spader won an EWWY! Thanks for the countdown....I was just thinking about the number of days it was.

JBiltz said...

Rewatched the series again and can't help but think that Liz should have killed Tom. I know why they did not want Tom dead but I think her not killing him was sort of a cop out. It goes pretty much unnoticed but Liz has been a pretty remorseless killer through out the first season. For all the people we have seen her kill we have never seen a bit of regret or emotion over it.

Chompstick said...

You're right, I hadn't noticed her remorseless-ness. In reality, she should have been raging over his betrayal and waiting for an excuse to kill him. I can't imagine any normal person, let alone someone trained to kill, feeling conflicted because they loved this person and couldn't bring themselves to pull the trigger.

The idea that she didn't want him dead because he might have valuable information about Red doesn't hold water, either. She could have tortured him to elicit information, with the added bonus of revenge: shoot this kneecap because you made me think you loved me; your nuts because I thought we were getting a baby....

Chompstick said...

To JBiltz or anyone else who has watched the entire season twice through -

Did you pick up on anything new the second time around? A detail that might be a significant clue? A side of someone's personality that was initially obscured by a stronger trait? Dialogue you may have missed? A broader theme developing that wasn't noticeable until the episodes were viewed as an entirety in a short span? A Pavlovich brother in the first episode that didn't appear later? (I'd love to see them come back and wish they hadn't all been killed off.)

JBiltz said...

Being trained to kill is not the same thing as killing and Liz has not been trained to kill. She has been trained essentially to be a cop which believe me is very different than a soldier. Most cops never fire their gun. This is even more true for an FBI agent and she was not in a job where that was ever expected to happen.

A soldier expects to fire their gun and kill someone. How much that does or doesn't bother them the first time it happens is wildly different from person to person. Never make the mistake of thinking soldiers are all alike. They are a slice of the population and reflect that diversity and the USA is a very very diverse nation. As things stand now they are generally smarter, younger, more fit and more aggressive than the general population but that is because of the selection process, basic by the way is part of the selection process. It isn’t that soldiers are geniuses its that their average is higher than the general population because there is a minimum standard of education and test scores that has to be met and that skews the average. The young thing affects things considerably. Young men do risky stupid things, any insurance company will confirm this.

Liz kills her first man in the first episode while trapped in a car. She ran the Freelancer over in a car and smashed him up. She killed Frederick Barnes. In Anslo Garrick she shot that guy with her bottle silencer about as cold as could be. Then went on to set up a trap that killed another man. Later that day she killed the ambulance driver. Then she killed the Good Samaratin and after that she threatened the abusive husband. Not exactly a sign she was broken up over shooting him. In none of those situations did she show the slightest remorse or hesitation. In every one of those shootings she killed and moved on to the next thing to do. Contrast that with Amar’s reaction to shooting that guy.

But I wasn’t really talking about whether she could not kill him because she still had feelings. Realistically, I’m surprised she stopped shooting him instead of emptying the gun into him. I just think it would have been very interesting if she had shot him in cold blood. But they don’t want Tom dead yet.

JBiltz said...

Chompstick, I've watched the entire series several times even before the DVDs came out but when I observe something I generally post it. If you look back over my posts this summer you will see some of this.

Chompstick said...

Yup, I've read all of your comments but I didn't know if you had seen the entire season again sequentially over a short time span. Perhaps you would've picked up something additional viewing it that way. I think I will re-read all the comments before S2.

Evey Edge said...

@JBlitz It didn't surprise me that Liz didn't finish Tom off. For one thing there is a big difference between shooting someone in defense of yourself or someone else and killing someone in cold blood. For another Liz loved Tom. Although at an intellectual level she knows Tom was a cover the residual feelings muddy her emotional response. I don't know if your an agent of shield fan but, there's a scene where a woman in a similar situation is forced to choose between giving in to the enemy and letting the man she had feeling for prior to the revelation of his treason die. If even a shred of the man you loved was real it would be hard for anyone to pull the trigger, IMO.

JBiltz said...

I think I have to change the theory that Red rescuing Liz is what caused what happened to his family. To get the kind of scars Red has would mean he got burned really bad. There is no way he got burned that badly and then just went home for Xmas. Those are you need serious medical attention burns. We know Liz's fire and Red's family both happened around Xmas. Its possible Liz's fire happened say a year earlier but I think for now I'll have to abandon that theory. A shame really, I really liked that theory.

So a big question is why was Red's family attacked and why was Liz's family attacked at around the same time.

Chompstick said...

Hopefully we won't have to wait for the series finale to get those answers.

Charmed said...

JBiltz, I really liked that theory too. Maybe the burns occurred after Red visited his home?

I keep thinking about that deep hole in the ground Red mentioned too. I would love to know more about that, or was that another of his throwaway lines?

Welcome back Evey Edge.

JBiltz said...

Well, Liz was there. I don't believe any throwaway lines unless Liz is there since he doesn't seem to lie to Liz.

Chompstick said...

I think one thing we can count on throughout the series is that Red won't lie to Liz. He may evade a question and the answer might be misleading without further information, but I think the EPs will hold true to the no lies.

Jane said...

@Lisa Yes, he could have been lying by using that story as the reason he could never get romantically involved with anyone again.
September 24, 2014 at 5:05 PM

Charmed said...

Here's one more reason I think Liz was age 4 when she began living with Sam. Her nightmares. Sam used to hum a song to her when she awoke from a nightmare.

Red refurbished a Sorrento music box that played the same tune, to remind and comfort Liz. The tune may have been "The Anniversary Waltz" from 1941.
1.17 "Ivan".

Chompstick said...

laura in la said...

"The Girl" can't be Berlin's daughter. He was sent to the gulag because she eloped with a dissident, so she must have been at least an older teenager. Perhaps Zoe could be Berlin's granddaughter.

The girl in the Stewmaker photo is young, and the photo was not one of the more recent in the book. It seems time-wise and by appearance not to be Zoe. But it must have some connection to her, if Aram would use it to track her. Another suggestion that Zoe is Berlin's granddaughter, and the photo is of her mother.

The locket Berlin receives in the gulag was a gift he'd given his daughter, and the photo is of her. It does greatly resemble the Stewmaker subject, to my mind. I don't think it could really be Redd's daughter. I had wondered if a young undercover Redd could have been the "dissident" who eloped with Berlin's daughter. If so, perhaps Zoe is their child. So she'd be Redd's daughter, but not the one he had with Naomi. I also don't think the little girl in the film reel looks much like Zoe, including very curly/wavy vs. straight hair.

The first time we see Liz in the warehouse, she sits and looks at The Door. She is tossing keys in her hand, which I assumed would unlock The Door. But later she asks "The Samoan" (NBC's title) for permission to enter The Room because The Door is now open. He seems disdainful of Liz. I don't think she owns The Room. I prefer the idea that The Samoan is a bodyguard/bouncer, and Liz is being given/exchanging intel inside The Room. Here's an idea: I'm sure Tom was the hood with glasses watching Liz from a car in S2E1. Maybe he made contact with her and is feeding her info about Berlin. The Room could be Tom's hideout -- he IS behind The Door, but not for the reason we think. Perhaps Tom has also provided some information about Redd, and that explains Liz's changed attitude towards Redd.

I'm curious about the keys Liz was jangling in the warehouse. I also have no idea who Pepper is in relation to Red, or what the old-fashioned key is about. If she is Red's agent, that might explain his ease in finding the compound. He seems to receive the location from Aram, but maybe he is discreetly pointing Aram in the direction of the solar farm. If Red gave Liz The Front as a Blacklist target, he might have learned from Pepper the group was about to launch an attack. None of this explains the key.

Quarantined Lizzie tells Samar that the antidote will come because of Carrie Anne's baby. Huh?????

October 21, 2014 at 5:34 PM


CES2 said ...

Regarding Berlin
I think it would be extremely unlikely that the story he told Ressler and Liz is real.

As far as his daughter age, the dissident story , her being imprisoned and all the rest - it could very well be a lie. I like to keep in mind that on Blacklist nothing is as it seems.

In my view the only part we can believe is that he believes his daughter was killed and her body sent to him piece by piece. For some reason he believes that Red is responsible and he wants a revenge for that.

October 21, 2014 at 6:08 PM


Redravenous said...

In regards to "behind the door" the speculations include:

- Tom
- Berlin
- Gina Z.
- all the above, since we know they are affiliated, is this the headquarters (perhaps where Tom would use the pay phone to call to)

I have a problem with the theory that Liz has Tom held captive since I'm still of the belief that the glasses on the stalker's dash were Tom's.

I do wonder about the intended meaning of the romantic scenes / memories of Liz and Tom in this episode. One kiss in particular was hot! Tends to indicate Liz is still feeling significant loss and that when Tom returns to the show her heart will rule over her head.

October 22, 2014 at 1:31 AM

Chompstick said...

Redravenous said...

I got the impression that Red knew Pepper previously and definitely at least has followed the movements of Beck and his environmental group for some time.

The key being possibly one of several needed to open a vault of some sort was my impression of this old style key but I still have not had the opportunity to watch the episode a second time yet and the first watch in real time was too quickly paced for me to draw conclusions.

Someone commented after an earlier episode that there appeared to be history between Naomi / Carla and Berlin, and she since always referred to Jennifer as "my daughter" my guest is that she is not Red 's daughter. She said to Red something like: she knew you would come for her some day so she took off. That leads me again to think that Red is not her father. Others have commented on Red's expression when seeing the woman Zoe - found by the DMV tracker guy as being calculated not emotional. More likely a pawn than a daughter, and even if she is a step daughter that he was protecting or hiding Red is likely to use her now to resolve the conflict with Berlin and to go after their "common enemy".

IMO the hospital bed scene only further fuels the argument that Liz is Red's daughter. Last episode after Red called her Agent Keen following listening to her conversation with Naomi/ Carla I thought we were being taken in the direction of him using her only for his own gain and then they throw the hospital scene after Red getting the cure to remind us that he will do anything to protect and save Liz and that he cares deeply for her.

October 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM


Redravenous said...

To Laura in la - it sure looked to me as a film reel of the memory flashback that Red had in his house that he bought and blew up. Same girl, same bubble activity, same day. Just based on memory but it was the same kind of moment for me when I saw it as the ballet dancing memory Red had that looked just like the girl in the Stewmaker's album. We saw Berlin take a similar picture of Naomi / Carla as the picture from the Stewmaker's album, she wasn't dead and although we were led to believe the girl in the picture was dead because it was an album of dead people,

The actress playing the woman (or "girl" as Red referred to her) is 33 but it is possible that Berlin's daughter could be as young as 36 or 38, so it is possible she's Berlin's daughter.... Maybe? Especially if it was the Stewmaker photo given to the DMV tracker. But then how could she be Naomi's daughter Jennifer, a child when Carla and Red were together?

October 22, 2014 at 6:32 PM

Chompstick said...

Redravenous said...

I forgot to add, that ties my thoughts together, we all thought Red was remembering his daughter ballet dancing and she was the same girl as the Stewmaker photo (because of the side angle of her face). However, could the girl in the film reel be the girl dancing, a few years older with her curly locks pulled tightly back and thus looking much like the Stewmaker photo girl with that side angle of her face. I would like to compare features of the girl in the film with Red's memory of the ballet dancer to see if it's possible they are one in the same person.

October 22, 2014 at 6:42 PM


laura in la said...

Hi, Redravenous! I just checked out "Mako Tanida", the episode with the ballet, and I think the dancer is too young to be the Stewmaker's girl. She could be the bubble-blowing child, a bit older, but I couldn't really get a good look at her face. It's at the end of the episode; I'd be curious to know what everybody thinks.

October 22, 2014 at 11:09 PM


laura in la said...

BTW, my husband just watched the episode, and he says that Glenn says he found the girl partly "because of an FBI search" or words to that effect. So when Red asked Aram to check, he wittingly or not helped Glenn.

Any bets on whether Red knew this would happen? ;) Moreover, did he guess that Aram would tell Liz, setting her up to see her reaction? Sneaky devil.

October 22, 2014 at 11:14 PM


Jane said...

Redravenous, I remember the Bubble Girl at the Blue Blown-up House having blonde hair as well as the Ballerina and the Stewmaker Girl. The girl in last week's old movie playing with bubbles was definitely a brunette (yes, another brunette).

October 23, 2014 at 12:36 AM


Redravenous said...

I've missed something in regards to why there is speculation about the woman Red is tracking ( Food truck woman ) possibly being Berlin's daughter. Other than age discrepancy has there been any indications or clues that Berlin has a granddaughter? Wouldn't a woman in her mid 30's be too old to be his granddaughter?

How old is Berlin? I have to check out Chompstick's timelines.

Chompstick said...

Redravenous said...

In my earlier comment I meant to say or ask why there is speculation that Red is tracking Berlin's granddaughter.

October 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM


laura in la said...

@Redravenous, I subscribe to that theory. Red has been using the Stewmaker photo to locate "The Girl". I believe that the photo matches Berlin's locket picture of his daughter, who is dead.

Although Zoe is not the daughter, Glenn says she is still a 97% match when the photo is digitally aged. I choose to believe the romantic story of the daughter and the dissident eloping to America, so Zoe could easily be their child. If Red can't return aberlin's daughter to him, the next best thing would be his granddaughter.

One problem with this theory is that the girl in the Stewmaker photo looks a bit young to have run away with a boyfriend, and the Zoe actress is a bit older than the daughter'so child would likely be. In that case, Zoe could be Berlin's daughter. But I like my theory better ;).

October 23, 2014 at 10:19 AM


Redd said...

I think I have "unlocked" the mystery of the key. Recall the painting had been stolen from the museum leaving behind many more valuable ones. I think it is the key to the museum and Red will use it to "acquire" others for resale.

An idea about the key: Perhaps it is the key to the art museum where the painting was stolen. There were many "more valuable" paintings not taken that would likely interest Red.

October 23, 2014 at 3:36 PM


Redravenous said...

Hi Laura in la! Thanks for sharing your theory. What you described is exactly my conundrum, she's too old to be a granddaughter and probably too young to be his daughter. Who is she? Is she Jennifer? I can see Red having a daughter her approximate age, or Naomi/Carla (I hate when they give us two names for one character) but both would have been young parents. Berlin seems older to me. I estimate he's 60 so possible descendants would be around 40 and 20 something. In the beginning Berlin was unkempt and appeared older but when he and Red had their bench discussion I didn't find there was much difference in age. Less difference than that of Fitch and Red.
The Blacklist folks enjoy the mysteries and clues to have their fun with us, so she could be anyone .... More linked to the key than to Berlin or Liz.

I'm curious to know if you are in the Liz is Red's daughter camp or the other thinking that they aren't related and Red has other reasons for infiltrating Liz's life. Honestly, I am quite fickle in this regard and although steadfast in the daughter camp for much of season 1 I have been vacillating almost every episode this season.

Well if we are using an actor's age to help estimate a character's age:

Peter Storemare is 61. And Alan Alda's is 78. James Spader is 56.

Sorry James, my bad, 54 years old.

October 23, 2014 at 5:51 PM

Chompstick said...

laura in la said...

Hi, Redravenous! I'm not sure we can rely on actors' ages, since I'll bet appearance was more important in casting than strict accuracy -- one of those unimportant points the Blacklist writers seem to gloss over ;).

Another theory that Red provided a new identity for Berlin's daughter when she fled to the U.S. and paid the Stewmaker to pretend to dispose of her to fool her enemies. He eventually pocketed the photo to remove his connection to the Stewmaker. Still later Red realized that this girl was actually Berlin's daughter, so he's been searching for her and thinks she's Zoe. But I question how he would ever have lost track of "The Girl"; I'd bet Red keeps tabs on his clients. And he obviously didn't name her Zoe Dantonio, so how and why did she change her name again? There's a whole other mystery with missing photos surrounding or replaced by her picture in the Stewmaker's album, but I'm not sure how that fits or doesn't.

Originally, I thought Liz might be Berlin's granddaughter. Red could have given her parents new identities but only managed to rescue Liz when their Russian enemies tracked them down. But then Red wouldn't be searching for Liz's mother using the photo -- and Zoe clearly is not Liz's mother ;). Red would also obviously know if Liz is Berlin's daughter, and Berlin would have recognized her anyway. Plus Liz is too young. For a brief moment I thought Liz could be Red's child with Berlin's daughter, but that no longer makes sense either.

But then again.... Liz's scar does eerily resemble the Berlin symbol on Tom's box and envelope. So maybe she's Berlin's _other_ granddaughter. Or something ;).

In the end, I can't believe Liz is genetically related to Red! Surely she would have checked their DNA by now. But then again, we are talking about the world's least competent FBI agent ;). Besides, she isn't Naomi's daughter, and I can't fathom Red having time to create a whole other family before or after Carla and Jennifer. I think Liz's parents were eeevil, and Red killed them; Tom thought Red's part in the fire incident was simply shocking, after all.

A lot of things seem to have happened around December 1990: Red leaving his family, the Stewmaker receiving Berlin's daughter, and Liz being rescued from the fire. Let's say the Berlin storyline
will be wrapped in the next few nights (I think Zoe is only included in four episodes). Then the fire and Red's disappearance could be parts of the Consortium mess, leading to #1 on the Blacklist. Who's left as a candidate for Liz's father? Finch? Hah.

October 23, 2014 at 7:48 PM

Chompstick said...

JBiltz said...

I think the key looks like the key Madeline Pratt used to open Red's safety deposit box. So I'm guessing safety deposit box. That would make sense because face it skeleton key locks are easy to get around.

I keep going around the same circle with Red, Berlin, Carla, Liz and Zoe.
Red was looking for that photo before he had any idea who Berlin was. Way back around episode 4 or 5. So she had to be important aside from Berlin because he had no idea who Berlin was. Back then we were assuming it was Red's daughter and it was personal. I do think it was personal not just personal only. What is more from comments Red made he was looking for the Stewmaker for a considerable period of time.

We know Red had a picture and had it aged. So a lot of people think it was the picture he took from the Stewmaker. NBC's recap said it was, NBC's recap also said it was Liz stripping in the window not the double. So I'm not considering that reliable. I’m wondering if he did not get the photo from that film he was watching. Which would explain all that cutting and splicing he was doing.

I cannot come up for a reason for that picture to be in Stewmaker’s book if she is not dead. It was not a ledger it was his personal trophy book. I can conceive several ways to fake Stewiegirls death but none of them put that picture in his book. So I’m saying she is dead.
I don’t think looking at photos of the ballerina and bubble girl help. They are two different actresses of different ages hired by the show not a real person at different ages.

We’re missing too many puzzle pieces to solve it. The good thing is I think we are going to get them all in the next month or so.

October 24, 2014 at 4:46 AM

Redravenous said...

That's an interesting suggestion JBiltz, that Red may have used a picture from the film rather than the Stewmaker photo. However that would indicate to me he is looking for someone special to him, not tactical. We see him watch the film of a woman and young girl in a delighted and sentimental manner and his memory of the same image was a poignant one. (Indicating someone special)

What he says to Aram and Liz seems to be from a tactical aspect: "this woman is critical in my war with Berlin" and "I assure you Lizzie my quest to find this young woman will in no way compromise our relationship"

October 24, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Chompstick said...

Redravenous said...

Just want to ask if anyone thought in the final scene when Red is watching Zoe Dantonio at the food truck - does it look like he is being careful that she doesn't see him? Possibly indicating that she would know him to see him, as Naomi's daughter Jennifer might To me it appeared as if she looked right at him but it didn't register or she didn't recognize him or she did but didn't let on that she did. Red's body language was if he didn't want her to see him (IMO).

October 24, 2014 at 12:45 PM

JBiltz said...

The thing is I think considering how desperate and off center having his wife kidnapped made Red having his maybe daughter kidnapped and her parts sent to him I'd say it would be critical on a tactical basis to get her safe.
October 24, 2014 at 1:28 PM

fangirl said...

laura in la said..."Liz's scar does eerily resemble the Berlin symbol on Tom's box and envelope. So maybe she's Berlin's _other_ granddaughter. Or something ;)."

Hi, laura in la. The mystery of Lizzy's scar is so interesting! But I don't think I've ever heard it referred to as "the Berlin symbol". Could you please explain a little bit about why you think the scar is a symbol related to Berlin?
laura in la said..."In the end, I can't believe Liz is genetically related to Red! Surely she would have checked their DNA by now. But then again, we are talking about the world's least competent FBI agent ;)." Well, she's only incompetent sometimes :D and only because the writers write her lines and actions, of course. But, I totally agree with you that Liz isn't genetically related to Red. Even if Liz hasn't run a DNA test, surely the FBI has.

But! There was an episode in season one, in which the villain of the week was giving people fake DNA (DNA from other people). Maybe this is a clue that will eventually be shown to be a factor in the Liz/Red connection!

October 24, 2014 at 10:28 PM

Chompstick said...

CES2 said...

fangirl - That’s the problem, isn’t it. Sometimes it is hard to decide if something is a clue or out of character because of bad writing.

I still vividly remember the scene at the end of J Covington episode where Liz clearly tells Samar “you are right - I do not trust you...I do not trust you because I do not know the reason why.. Reddington wanted you at FBI..and I suspect neither do you…”

Regarding the shape of Lizzy’s scar we discussed it at length last season and someone through the research came up with the suggestion that it resembles Berlin Bear - City of Berlin coat of arm symbol, ( possibly upside down, do not remember the details).

October 25, 2014 at 12:18 AM

Carolina Girl said...

I have finally seen the last 2 episodes twice and man am I lost. This show makes me crazy !!!

I thought Dr. L C was much better than The Front, which IMHO was boring.
The whole subject of mind control is so interesting to me because I believe it is going on. Not going to say anymore other than I believe it is used to manipulate us to get a desired outcome. Nuff said. Not sure I have heard of the warrior gene but I am going to look it up. Lizzie's session with Dr. C was very telling. Did Aram know she was telling the truth? Again, if I could hear what they are mumbling, I could probably solve this thing .... Lol!!! If any of you writers are reading our comments .... Please, please, please make them stop
Making the music louder when the actors are talking. It is SO FREAKING annoying !!!!

So, if Jennifer is not Red's daughter then why would he be coming for her? She has to be related in some way to Berlin and where the heck is HE anyway? I just can't keep this show straight. They need to start tying up some of these loose ends.

Naomi/Carla was lying to Lizzie when she told her that Red wants something from her but I don't think she lied when she said he wasn't who she thinks he is. That could even mean a million thing though.
I did think it was interesting when she was in the Dr.'s office and he said when you spend a lot of time with a parent, you begin to see who you will become or something like that. I wish I was good at pulling this stuff up to get the actually wording. They showed Red right after that.

Oh and why did he put those ear buds on her to play that song???
I have to admit when I first saw Pepper, I thought it was Stewiegirl With that red hair.

It makes sense that the key had something to do with Madelyn Pratt, esp having to do with art and all.

Did anyone see or comment on that guy in the airport that was going to set off the virus. Didn't he have that scar on his wrist like Lizzie's?

Not sure I liked that scene with fake Liz stripping. It really cheapened the show. Just my two cents.

Why is Liz going on and on about a baby now? Do you think she will try to adopt that baby?

Why does Liz look so much like Naome/Carla? It just hit me that Liz wouldn't remember her because she looks different!!!

Last thing .... Can't wait to see what is in that file !!!

I am going to ponder these thing .... Especially the timeline. It has to fit together somehow.

October 25, 2014 at 9:34 PM

Chompstick said...

JBiltz said...

I'm starting over. I'm going to watch them all again. It is pretty startling at this point to go back and see the pilot. Its amazing how when everyone is assessing Liz that they forget she punched that pen into Red's neck. At this point I think that might well be the real Liz. With football tomorrow and all the Monday night shows it will probably be the end of the week before I'm done. But I really am expecting some insight from watching them with some foresight.

October 25, 2014 at 10:41 PM


Redravenous said...

I can't remember us discussing the last thing Naomi said to Red. " we have to tell her". I took that to mean they have to tell Liz about what she's desperate to know about her past. Maybe she meant Jennifer, they have to tell her about Berlin - that Berlin's her daddy (or grandfather).

Carolina Girl - I'll admit The Blacklist has control of my mind.

October 25, 2014 at 11:58 PM


JBiltz said...

I had another night where I slept for 30 minutes and that's it. But I awoke with the idea that Fitch is Red's father in law. Almost certainly not true. We should have seen Fitch when Carla was a prisoner if it was true. But its such a nice idea.

October 26, 2014 at 9:41 AM


Carolina Girl said...

I keep thinking about Carla too, Blitz. I can't get over her indifference to Lizzie. If she had a relationship to her, she would have been warmer, no? Even if she felt compassion for her or acted like she really wanted to help her. She instead seems very cold towards her, even jealous!

I keep thinking again about the Berlin story and how that could have worked out. Did they ever say how long Red and Carla were married? I was thinking that maybe Red got Berlin's daughter out of Russia while they were married and brought her back to where they lived. She was very young but old enough to have gotten pregnant. Maybe even by Red because maybe he thought he wasn't ever going to get out of there. I am am sure as a woman, if that had happened to me, I would not only resent the other woman, I wouldn't be real happy with the child either. Red did say something to Carla's hubby about giving her security and being faithful. Things he couldn't give her. Could Carla have been upset about him bringing her to the cabin because that is where The other family was living?

I also think they purposely casted Carla for the resemblance between her and Liz. The close ups in Dr. L C were obvious to show it. Another red herring if you ask me. A any thoughts?

October 26, 2014 at 11:23 AM


Carolina Girl said...

Looking on Timeline page, I don't see why the above couldn't work with timeline. Would mean Liz, if she is the daughter of Red and Berlin's daughter. She would have been conceived in 1985 or so. Red could have been on an assignment. Left another family behind. Maybe Carla only thought Red rescued them and found out that there was more to the story and went to confront Berlin's daughter Christmas Eve?

So looking at those photos of Red to the side. Why did they post those? I guess that was after he went AWOL because before he would have been very clean cut unless he was undercover ?????

The other thing is that photo of Gina ..... My minds eye went immediately to Red's most recent video of bubble girl ..... Hmmmmmm?

October 26, 2014 at 12:01 PM


JBiltz said...

If Carla is 50 now then in 1990 she would have been 25. In 1987 when the ballerina was dancing she would have been 22. That is a little young to have a daughter dancing.

I was thinking we thought the ballerina was like 8? Anyone remember? If she was 8 then she was too old to be Carla's daughter.

Where did it come from that Carla was 50? Is that the actress' age?

October 26, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Chompstick said...

Harry said...

Yeah, I think it's because Mary-Louise Parker is 50

October 26, 2014 at 3:59 PM


CES2 said...

I have been pondering over the similarities between 2 scenes - Red threatening Frank with a stick pressed to his neck and Liz punching a hole in Red's carotid artery with a pen.

Where did Liz learn to be so quick and efficient with a pen? At this stage she is not a trained field agent.

Was that particular skill part of FBI course (self defence 101) for profilers, or are there shades of Femme Nikita in Blacklist?

I do not think this is a basic skill required of agents, like shooting is.

Is this Lizzy's secret past?

I think Femme Nikita with a bit of amnesia thrown in fits the bill better for me than Liz fully aware of who she is and what she was trained for?

October 26, 2014 at 6:28 PM


JBiltz said...

Liz's known life is awfully full already. Being board certified in forensic psychology at her age is pretty near impossible on its own.

Using a pen to stab someone is a pretty common technique. They even sell pens that are designed for this use.

http://www.amazon.com/Maxam-Military-Grade-Tactical-Self-defense/dp/B001F3442G

Frankly, Liz's hand to hand skills are not that great. She is well above normal but not excessive for a female FBI agent. I would also point out she has lost most of her fights. In fact she has lost all of them where she did not get in a surprise attack. I will say she is a really good shot. I don't believe she has missed a shot in the series and her first kill on the bridge was with her left hand. But lots of common ordinary citizens are good shots. Proper training, practice and natural skills are all that is required. This is a video of a then 15 year old girl shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnBDIbgbMk

October 26, 2014 at 7:23 PM


Redravenous said...

I find Liz to be pretty tough and although she takes criticism for being a bad agent I normally don't see her that way. Of course I'm not too knowledgeable about the subject matter (FBI procedures, hand to hand or weaponized combat). She's assertive, analytical courageous, team oriented etc. Can't blame her for what the writers and directors do with a scene. For instance Cooper sends her and Samar alone to the airport and tells Ressler to stay behind to work with Aram. And yes I'm talking about the character Liz but I like Megan Boone as well.

Carolina Girl - your theory is intriguing. Red is then the dissident in Berlin's story. Berlin's daughter would have been young, based on the Stewmaker picture. Maybe 18, and Red in his 20's. When you said "maybe he thought he wasn't ever going to get out of there", do you mean Russian prison? I don't know why Red wouldn't know it was Berlin after him and messing with his business if he was the dissident.

I have always thought that there is more to Gina's story than we have been led to believe. I keep waiting for her to come back into the show. Now she could fight!

October 26, 2014 at 8:52 PM

Redravenous said...

I recall in early - mid season 1 there was lots of discussions around Liz being part of the secret stuff going on that resulted in the deal between Fitch and Red and the reason for Red's disappearance. Something along the Jason Bourne theme, genetic tampering, amnesia and specific training. Red may have rescued her from something like that and hid her with Sam to protect her.

If Berlin is soon to leave the story, I hope he is not killed off but rather written out so he can return later. Especially if he is Liz's or Jennifer's father.

October 26, 2014 at 9:13 PM

Chompstick said...

Carolina Girl said...

I don't know Blitz, it seems like anyway we try to figure out
Ballerina girl's age in 1987, the math doesn't work out unless she was born before Red graduated? Maybe the girl was younger?

October 26, 2014 at 9:49 PM


Carolina Girl said...

RedRav... I think I have it wrong. Red was not in prison, right? I was Berlin who was in prison, but that was not his real name and don't forget this was years ago. I don't think Red even knew about the body parts being sent to him until Berlin showed up, so why would he suspect him? However, if Red was the dissident, Berlin would have known who he was but Red may not have known Berlin. Besides, doesn't the name Berlin go more with Germany rather than Russia?

October 26, 2014 at 10:08 PM


JBiltz said...

Red and Berlin did not know each other. He told Red in their conference at Coney Island that he was told Red killed his daughter. He then spent 8 years looking for Red when he found out about Liz. Which is strange when you think about it. I can't imagine Red running around talking about Liz all the time. So how would he hear about Liz? The only thing that comes to my mind is Red was doing research that involved Liz. It could have been scientific or it could have been he was looking into her background.

The few things we know about Liz are:
She was in a fire when she was 4 years old and it was around Xmas by the decorations.
She has a distinctive scar on her wrist.
Red's wife knew her so she had to be around Red's family before the big incident.

Red delivered her to Sam and was very afraid at the time.

Sam raised her as a single parent.
Sam was not in hiding, he was around at least his sister, Aunt Ruth.
She has demonstrated an ability to do slight of hand. Picking pockets and card manipulation. That could be she studied to be a magician or a thief. And honestly the card tricks make me think magician more than thief.

She went to college and became board certified in forensic psychology in way to short a period of time if she was 27. So she is book smart.

The original intent was she was to be very street smart but that never really showed up in the series.

She was in the FBI for 4 years at the start of the series.

Married to Tom for two years.

Everyone is assuming the fire was in 1990 when Red disappeared, I'm beginning to think the fire was at least a year before the Xmas of 1990 and Red brought Liz home with him to take care of her. This would explain the music box and why Carla knows her.

October 26, 2014 at 11:42 PM

Chompstick said...

timetraveler said...

I just rewatched The Front, and now I'm wondering who killed Beck and Pepper. When Beck drew his knife on Red he was holding it in his right hand, but when he was laying dead on the ground following the "murder/suicide" the gun was in his left hand. Something is fishy about these folks deaths. Did Red or Dembe take matters in their own hands and get rid of the problems? Or, was it just a staging mistake by the director?

October 27, 2014 at 1:39 AM


JBiltz said...

I don't really think it matters much who killed them. I think murder suicide myself mainly because I don't think Red would care if it looked like a suicide or not. I also think it would be in character for that guy to commit suicide rather than be caught. Speaking as a guy who carries a knife daily I always carry the knife on my off hand side. Gun on one side knife on the other. That way if my gun hand is pinned or something I can still get to a weapon with my other.

October 27, 2014 at 4:42 AM


Redravenous said...

Carolina Girl - I mentioned Red being in a Russian prison because I thought that's what he said when telling the story about his cell mate on the hunger strike. He was talking to Beck and Pepper and then made the comment about liking peppers and sausage.

October 27, 2014 at 7:05 AM


JBiltz said...

Yeah, I don't really believe those stories. Never have unless Liz is there. I think Red likes the sound of his voice a little too much.

October 27, 2014 at 7:30 AM


timetraveler said...

Thanks, Jbiltz, I didn't know that a knife was carried on the off hand side. You have cleared up my confusion regarding that scene.

October 27, 2014 at 8:59 AM


Carolina Girl said...

RedRav, thanks for bringing that scene back to mind. I am beginning to get confused because there are way to many stories and not much definite facts we can go on. I went to that page with the parable of The Farmer and the Christmas Eve story. I thought maybe Berlin's rankings were posted there too so I could look at it again. It might be a good one to have on that page. I wish we had more solid dates to add to our timeline :(

So, I am dropping that Berlin's daughter/ dissident thing right now because it is wearing me out. I re read the Christmas Eve story and I am now back on that. Three things stand out to me ...

The first thing is that for a long time, I saw two houses, two families with a daughter in each family. We were on the two daughter thing for awhile in one family, but lost sight of that. From this story, there has to be more than one child because of his wording. He is very precise in his speech always!

Second .... We had discussed how the Victorian house he blew up was in the burbs but on Christmas Eve, he ran out of gas in a rural area. So we thought there must be two homes, two families and there still may be but now that he too Carla to the cabin in the woods and it was definitely tied to them with pictures and she commented on why he would bring her THERE??? I am thinking this is house #2 and it could have been where they were spending the holiday. It was out in the country, it has a fireplace .... Did anyone see a piano?

Due to her comment, something could have happened there or that is where he was housing " guests" ???

The third thing is the last line. That this is why I didn't show up in Florence. It just reinforces to me that because of what happened THAT night, it is the reason he turned himself in to the FBI, so he can find out what happened and who did it and bring all of these people to justice. My personal opinion is to expose the deepest secrets of the government. Notice how he always calls it "your" government?

Thanks Blitz too, for the facts about Liz. Hopefully tonight will be a good as they say. It better be more answers the questions !!!

October 27, 2014 at 9:46 AM

B.C. said...

Just dropping by to share this recent news I found interesting due to the warrior gene plot in episode 4

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/genes-associated-violent-crimes-identified

Chompstick said...

Thanks for the warrior gene link, B.C.

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