The Blacklist - "Mato #66" Episode 4.2 Discussion

Red enlists Tom and the Task Force to help track a notorious bounty hunter who may know Alexander Kirk's next move. Meanwhile, Liz struggles to decide if Kirk is trustworthy.


Lisa Dale Jones said...

Does anyone know how I can watch the Blacklist in Rome, Italy? We'll be there on vacation for episodes 3 and 4 and I don't want to miss it for two weeks! Only bringing our television (in English...) would be great.

Tabasko said...

LDJ, I hope someone has the answer, but how fun! Good for you.

Honey West said...

LDJ, I know you will be able to watch on after they air. Not sure exactly when they put them up on there, though. You'll just need to find some good wi-fi. I hope you get to watch!

Honey West said...

But that said, you will be in Rome!!! I am so jealous! It's been a few years and I need to go back. Have a wonderful trip!

Lisa Dale Jones said...

I've only ever missed one episode before, and reading everyone's comments and the EW recap, I almost felt like I'd seen it, but not quite. (It's the one with the painting of Liz over a grave at the end - did see pictures of the painting!) But I'm not sure doing that for two in a row is going to work...

Lisa Dale Jones said...

I'm really looking forward to the trip! I don't think the Blacklist has ever been there - I would think Red would love it in Rome. :-)

Lake Girl said...

LDJ, I'm so excited for you :). I've never been there...maybe one day hubby and I will be able to go. I agree that Red would love Rome.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

My money is on Liz surviving the water crash! Too early in season for anything else. Kirk also survives. Not so hopeful for Sky Pilot.

Red, Dembe, Kate all come out of the t-boning no worse for wear. Kate needed a slight assist from the suddenly appearing Tom.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

"Watch Me!" Lizzie's best line of the series - so far! She's all bidness since coming back from pregnancy!!! lol

lara1 said...

interesting that Red doesn't seem to have any idea where Kirk is taking Liz. And kirk seems to know that too......

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Other than a couple bonding seconds between Liz & Captain Kirk a bit of a snoozefest.
Tom & Nikos - business is about to pick up!

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Now why did Kirk shoot Capitano? And Liz, the experienced FBI agent leave Kirk with a gun & ammo?

Lisa Dale Jones said...

So Red put Liz in Kate's arms when she was a baby and told her to keep her safe.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Apparently Resler, Aram, Harold and Mozhan given first half of ep off! Little or no screen time!

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Katie Cruel screws up again! Redeems herself within 30 seconds! Too funny!

lara1 said...

Kaplan sounding bitter...Hmmmm

Big Bad Bazzer said...

lara - Red is either totally fed up with her - or she's indispensable!

lara1 said...

I'm wondering if "Katya" is dressed up like Kaplan for a reason.....

BBB - yeah.

Anonymous said...

Could there have been two baby girls, and Red got them mixed up? He gave a baby Liz to Kate for safekeeping, but the other one, the one we know, grew up with Kirk until fire night?

Tatiana said...

Lots of commercials. What did Kate say about havng her face cut in half when Nikko found her?

Don't think Kirk is telling the truth, but why would he go through all thus.

And Red is.raging.

Oh crap, he's going to kill her.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Didn't think he'd do the deed after that speech - but he did - and perhaps he left Kate with a chance, who knows?

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Could Kate have been the mother of the woman who's now the housekeeper at the summer palace?

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Nice to see Little Brother Baz back on the team!

lara1 said...

OMG. That really WAS shocking. But I have a feeling its not the end of the story.

Something is not right with the Kirk house. If Red gave Liz to Kaplan as a baby she could not have been in that house.

Kirk knew she would find the buried can....

Now I'm thinking that there have got to be two girls, somehow. Did Red take the wrong one, or one different to what he thought? Or was that image a "planted" memory.

lots to think about

Tatiana said...

I officially do not like Raymond Reddington right now. He's a bad, bad, bad, dude.

lara1 said...

Lisa Dale Jones - that's a really interesting thought. And she did dress like her!

So either Liz never grew up there or she did, but not with Kirk - with Kaplan and Katarina.

But didn't Red say that Kirk used to summer there?

I didn't catch all of that stuff about Kate and Annie and her face.

I need to read the transcript - hope its available soon!

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Was that drawing in the garage at her grandfather's house? The one at the summer palace looked too new. The paper should have been much more yellow and crispy.

DZ731 said...

Some things are unforgivable. I'm not sure I can forgive Red for "killing" Mr. Kaplan. But thanks to the preview, we know she's not dead yet. I truly disliked Red throughout this episode.

If was fun to see Katarina again in Liz's memory. I'm glad Liz found the time capsule.

Lake Girl said...

Too tired and a bit shell shocked to comment much. I know Red has been on an emotional roller coaster with everything he's gone through, but shooting Kate was over the line! I'm not liking Red much right now either!

Big Bad Bazzer said...

I think primary purpose of this ep was to re-build Red's reputation as a savage animal; the concierge of crime and killing! Dual purpose was to build sympathy for Kirk. It certainly worked tonite!

lara1 said...

Tatiana - I was thinking, I expected him to be more conflicted. He seemed pretty cold as he did it (as whenever he assassinates anyone). That surprised me though. I think Kaplan crossed the "loyalty" line in his mind, she caused him all that pain where he nearly killed himself, and has, as far as I can see totally messed up Red, Liz and Agnes and whatever Red's plan is (i.e. his endgame, whatever he is trying to achieve). And she became a huge liability to him.

But I still expected him to say more than he did to her. For a moment, I thought he was going to banish her to the wilderness. Maybe its a reality check. He really is bad, bad.

eastcoast said...

Besides the fact that I am ticked off and agree with Tatiana,

the news cut in and I did NOT get to see the preview for next week.
IS there anything to help me sleep better tonight? Maybe Dembe will go back for her?

Iowa Watcher said...

I did not like that ending.

What was the point of that last bit about Mr. Kaplin lying there with eyes open and grabbing at the dirt? Are the show runners implying that she's not dead, that Red didn't fatally shoot her? Or that he left her alive to bleed out?


I hope that she turns up alive next week, hiding out on a secluded beach.

But I'll bet she's dead. ):

As for the rest of it, I don't care right now. Kirk is annoying. I doubt he's her father. Something screwy is going on.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Red was starting to leak oil - becoming a talented concierge of talk rather than crime. Now, his reputation is restored. He's an animal - FOR NOW

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Did Mr. Kaplan have a phone with her? If so, she might be able to call Tom - for the save!

eastcoast said...

well, I guess that will score some points with Liz...

Iowa Watcher said...

Yes, the news cut in here before I saw the preview. Mr. Kaplin is alive !! Good. She shouldn't die right now. She's too good of a character to kill off. Yes, I know it would be out of character for Red to let her live, but still . . .

Colleen P. said...

Wow... For me Red just passed the point of no return... Need to rethink everything...

Lisa you are right about the drawing... "Kiss my freckle" on Tumblr posted both drawings side by side... Look identical except Liz's drawing has "Masha" signature on it.

eastcoast said...

I saw that and thought who ever wrote that should be fired! The "shock" value isn't always the best value!

eastcoast said...

Thank you Iowa W.

Colleen p, im right there with you...

lara1 said...

Lisa Dale Jones #27 - yes it looked the same. But the one at Dom's did not say "masha" in the bottom corner. Thet makes me suspect everything about the inside of the house. It could have been a reconstruction of a room she had, but if she was an infant when Red gave her to Kaplan I can't see how that could have been her room when she was with Kirk (if she ever was) - that was not an infant's room I don't think. I somehow think the swing" was a plant. Too convenient there happens to be that photo of her mother and the swing is outside the door. Hmmmm

I am totally perplexed! have to watch it again and think through.

A part of me thinks that Kirk is playing a very cool, slow game in getting Liz to trust him. Why and what he is up to I have no real idea now.

BBB #30 - totally agree. I was still shocked, I think the big thing was that Kaplan destroyed his endgame (he said something to her like, you presumed to know what was best for me - or something like that). I have always thought Red had a goal or knew stuff that no one else did. So she presumed she did and what was best. Not saying I'm happy with it, but that's what I think went through his head, apart from the continuing lack of trust.

Interesting that Dembe did not try to intervene or point out reason to Red (like in the Mombasa cartel). But then again he probably could not.

DZ731 said...

I knew when I heard a Gordon Lightfoot start that Red was going to shoot Kaplan. Shades of Diane Fowler.

Iowa Watcher said...

Okay, I'm going to tell myself this so I can sleep: Mr. Kaplan knew that Red was going to kill her, so she was wearing a thin, state of the art bullet-proof vest. She survives, calls someone to come and get her, and goes into hiding.

Iowa Watcher said...

Here's a link to an article about paper-thin bullet-proof vests. In my fantasy, Mr. Kaplan was wearing one of these:

Tatiana said...

Iowa Watcher - I love it! Of course she would be prepared :-)

DZ731 said...

Iowa Watcher - I like your vest idea. It does making going to sleep easier.

lara1 said...

DZ731 - yes the music did unsettle me, a melancholy but beautiful song playing while they drove, drove, drove into the middle of nowhere. Then Red to Dembe - why don't you stay by the car. oh oh

But I still thought at the last minute he was going to banish her to the wilderness instead. but knowing Red, I shouldn't have. He gave that comment "its yours" a mean twist he sometimes does when killing someone -"for all eternity". OH. I think he was full of rage and totally hated her at that moment.

Not saying I agreed with him, mind you. But I think he was so full of rage and hate nothing else mattered in that moment.

Big question - will he regret it?

lara1 said...

Iowa Watcher #43 - I like your idea.

All this makes me wonder, what ever happened to Dr. Nik? we have not seen him yet Red didn't kill him that we know....but that was before Red found out he'd been duped.....

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Red has bigger fish to fry than Dr. Nik.
He's truly on a fishing expedition - at least for the foreseeable future!
Perhaps even Aram should head to a "safehouse"! lol

lara1 said...

BBB - you are probably right!

lara1 said...

Now that the shock has worn off a bit, and we have seen the preview of next week, does anyone think the following odd:

Red shot kaplan at a distance, once. Normally (well I mean when he's been betrayed), he shoots more than once, or up close, or both (Fowler, Niko, Vargas). Maybe he could not stand close to her and do this.

If Kaplan is still alive (and hope she is), why would that be? The man is not a novice and doesn't miss.


Eastcoast said...

Lara1, #51,
I thought of that and maybe he didn't want to with her.
I knew when I heard that music it was bad news. Seeing her and Dembe look at each other was sad. Dembe had a really sad look on his face as they walked away.

I will say one thing, she held her ground and didnt back down.

The other thing is that we still have no background of them and how they know each other. All that hype how we would have answers by the end of the 2nd episode etc.. I should have known better.

I was thinking what this will do to Liz and Tom. Bad move on his part.

Liz looked very conflicted when she looked at him.

I think what hit me the hardest is he is a man who needs forgiveness, and he didn't show her any, Except that he didn't fill her with a bunch of holes.

The new promos are out, and it looks like someone finds her but the music and words make it look like they are to make sure shes dead. I can't see who it is walking up to her.

I hope that isn't it. That would just make it worse to me. Killing her twice would be too much. I hope its Dembe going back to check on her and he helps her.
If he does maybe she goes into hiding and ends up in the spinoff?

Ah, I hear the potter patter of the rain storm coming in. Looks like a good time to try to sleep after seeing that. Its going to take a Lot for me to like him again.
Not a fan at this moment!

Do many things to comment on theory wise with kirk and I'm just not in the mood.

Iowa and DZ , in using the vest idea to go to sleep

lara1 said...

Eastcoast # 52 - yes I thought all of those things too.

Really need to re-watch the episode. I think there were things/clues in there but too much was happening to grasp a lot of it. (although not as many clues I don't think as I was hoping)

apart from what I've said above, the only "symbols" I picked up on were the obvious royal ones - "summer palace" (interesting wasn't this what the Russian czars called their summer home?) and Kirk referring to her as his princess, which took me right back to Luther Braxton.

The one thing about the fire memories (or rather Kirk negating them) is that there is one scene with Red and Liz, I think near the end of season 1, where Red is telling Liz "how Sam told the story". Red is re-liivng fire night in his mind - you see it through his eyes, I'm pretty sure of that. So I don't think its made up. And the whole thing of him not wanting Liz to remember the fight, but focus on the fulcrum. So something definitely happened that night.

I wonder if Kirk knows that Red had Liz's memories erased and replaced? He put it (fire night and the shooting) down to Reddington's stories, but didn't Liz have her own memories of it anyway, though limited, before Braxton? I think she remembered walking out with her father and him holding the bunny.


Yeah, still too focused on my upset about Kaplan to think any further through this....

Honey West said...

I'm still going whoah!

I knew that Red would think that Kaplan had to be eliminated, but I was hoping he would see it her way and not do it in the end. But, that said, he did see it her way, but he was so focused on the betrayal and never being able to trust her again ever aspect that he did it anyway. It was also a reminder that Red is a cold-blooded killer when he thinks someone deserves it. In Red's mind he sees himself as judge, jury and executioner of people who deserve to die. He alone makes the determination. Yet, he says to Kate that she is out of line to think she can make decisions as to what she thinks is best for him. In Red's world, apparently, he is the only one who is allowed to make those types of decisions. Liz once told him that he was so damaged that he couldn't accept anyone else's help. Really makes you wonder what happened to him in the past. Was he always that way? But getting back to Kate, it did seem that Red could see her point of view, that what she had done was ultimately to protect him, but it was like he just ignored that and refused to let it influence carrying out his "sentence". But, it was odd that he didn't make sure he'd finished her off. Was he afraid to look at her face? Or is he really that callous about killing her and basically leaving her for the buzzards? Not even the dignity of a burial. If the writers wanted us to stop feeling any sympathy for Red or even to like him, they certainly did a good job for now. Well, one thing's for sure, she's going to come back to haunt him. Like the ghost in the wishing well. I wonder who rescues her? The only people who know she's there are Red and Dembe. Will Red send Dembe back to bury her? It can't be Dembe, because if he rescued her then he would be betraying Red. And Dembe wouldn't do that.

Red knew exactly where the "Summer Palace" was located. If it was the fire house, then it was rebuilt and restored to the way it was exactly in the past. That seems odd. If a tragedy occurred there you might think it would have been left alone and abandoned. It all seemed very much "staged". Designed to refresh Liz's memories for some reason that we don't know yet. I still say Kirk wants her to remember something. But how did he know she would remember the coffee can? Unless that was a planted memory designed to make her remember other things, I don't see how he could know she would go right for it not five minutes after she'd been in the house. Obviously it was a pre-fire, pre-scar, memory, too as we saw by her hand brushing the flowers and her young self not having the scar.

And one last thing. It's interesting that Kirk wants to give her a beautiful house to live in and calls it "home", whereas when she returns"home" as Red provides it is a fake house in a warehouse. A facade, more like a movie set version of a house. A box or a guided cage maybe?

Honey West said...

Oh, just one more thing...
Who's Annie????

Ines said...

Ahh I know that going to sleep was not a good idea!.. Not pretty to awake in the morning missing the Blacklist!

Now I'm stuck at work and haven't watch it...although I have read a few reviews, just did not resist. I already grasp that Mr.Kaplan doesn't fair well...I really really hope that did not happen.. have to see it

I do not know the details, but I'm holding to the fact she is listed for 4x06 and this:
<a href="> Mr. Kaplan scenes in 4x03 promo </a>

Have a nice day guys, hope to read and comment later, when I have watch it!

Marie said...

I posted a link for an ET article about last night under the Link Page.

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Just a thought...what if Susan Hargrave is still working for Kirk? Perhaps she had someone following Red's car. Maybe it's one of her people who finds Kate and is able to rescue her? Then Mr. Kaplan could be in the Blacklist spin off.

Patter said...

A few things (not in any particular order)...

Mr. Kaplan getting out of the car (after a lengthy discussion with Tom) and basically giving Mato a heads up that Red is here. Was I think only one who saw it like that? She didn't appear to have any gun to shoot him there, and as soon as Mato saw her, he ran. Luckily hunk master Tom was there!

The confusion on Liz's face when Red is sitting in the car. Is she really trusting Kirk and her memories?

When Liz runs her hand over the bushes, there's a flash to a girl's wrist and her wrist. Did the girl's wrist have the burn mark? It looked like a childish arm and pinkish mark, while adult Liz's (when they used to show it all the time) looks like a healed scar.

What does KR say to Masha/Liz when they are burying the time capsule? Once again, our tv didn't show the dialogue clearly.

Dom needs to come back. I think he will be the one to help Liz identify truths. Well, once he says, "Masha/Elizabeth/Lizzie/Liz, I am your Opa!" ... Or maybe he isn't??? Maybe there are 2 girls!

Dembe looking at Kate in the car. :(

I think Red did what he said he was going to do when he shot Kate. Let her live out her days, no matter how much pain (emotionally and physically) she may be in. So she can suffer until the end. :( Mr. Kaplan is up there with Aram as far as favorite characters go. The preview showed her alive for now...

and BAZ!!!

Iowa Watcher said...

Something I just thought of, pre-coffee.

Mr. Kaplan said (I'm paraphrasing), "I'm not going to make it easy for him to kill me." I thought at the time that it meant she was going to keep fighting verbally with him, but it may have also meant she had on the special bullet-proof vest. I need to watch again, but did she also have access to Red's gun from the back seat? Did she do anything to it?

I agree about her potentially appearing in the spin-off.

I also agree that we didn't see the blood as we did with Diana Fowler, plus it looked like Red shot from the front facing him, but she landed on her front, not on her back.
We didn't see the blood or the bullet hole.

So, yes. Lots of questions:

- Did Red "go easy" on her? Scare her rather than actually kill her?

- Did Mr. Kaplan have a plan in place? (wear a vest, replace the gun with fake bullets?)

- And in this episode, did we see Mr. Kaplan decide that Agnes should go to Kirk? I'm still pondering the relationship she had with those men and the sign one made about keeping his lips sealed. Did she sell them out in the end?

I'll leave the Kirk question for now. I like the comments so far! He's not trustworthy but he may be telling the truth as he sees it.

Iowa Watcher said...

One last thought: I am hopeful that if Mr. Kaplan is rescued, we see Dr. Nik checking her out. That would be awesome!

Big Bad Bazzer said...

No question in my mind the show-runners decided to put a halt to Red's redemption arc - and turn him vicious again. Not a bad idea, cuz they had virtually nowhere to go if Red stayed passive, thoughtful and goody-good.
However, a warning. Don't turn Red into a yo-yo or ratings could easily go south.
Better though to make your main character yo-you from bad to good and back again than make Aram, Navabi or Harold into monsters. At this point it wouldn't be very believable.

DZ731 said...

There was a spoiler late in the summer that said Red would become the villain this season. Could that be what's happening?

Iowa Watcher - I think you're right about Kaplan's line about not making it easy for Red to kill her. She definitely had a plan.

Honey West - I agree. Who is Annie? Will we ever find out?

Who could be going after Kaplan in next week's episode? I agree that I don't think Dembe would help her because it would be betraying Raymond. But what about Baz? Or maybe the task force put a tracker on Red's car, and it's Ressler or Samar.

I would love to see Kaplan on the spinoff. Maybe that's the plan for her.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

@DZ - no question Red is being villained up. As far as Mr. Kaplan heading to the spin-off that's a reasonable assumption. . . . mainly due to James Spader being such a dominant actor who chews scenery like its his last supper! Even Tom (Ryan Eggold) for all his redemptive characterizations can't withstand the theatrical pelting of Spader debris. I think the only constants who will remain on the main cast are Dembe, Liz and The 3 Stooges from FBI post office (Aram, Samar, Harold). The rest of the cast will consist of recurring or newly spawned guests.

CngRed said...

Here's an 'endgame' idea...

The last name on the list? Reddington himself. Dispatched by none other than Liz - forehadowed in 3.15 Drexel,

Lake Girl said...

CngRed, that certainly is a possibility......

Am I the only one who's thoroughly frustrated right now, not only with Red but with Kaplin as well? I believe she was working with Mato right up until the end. She got out of the car right after seeing him. I believe she did that to warn him. She seemed so set on Red being a threat to Liz and Agnes....why doesn't she seem to think that Kirk is a threat? I don't feel that Kirk is any less of a danger to them than Red. And with her still working with Mato and Kirk, perhaps Red was being followed by his men, who wait til Red is gone to come to Kate's rescue. Just because I'm not happy with her working with Mato, doesn't mean I want her dead. Still furious at Reddington for shooting her! Wish we new what their history was!

Lake Girl said...

Those of you who think there are two little girls, I'm wondering if maybe y'all could be right. Could Katarina have been pregnant with twins, with Red and Kirk each being the father of one? Perhaps one of them died, leaving Kirk and Red fighting over Liz, not sure which one is her father?

Eternal Pamnation said...

I think Red intentionally grazed her, the way he did with Susan Hargrave. He'll send Dembe to get her once he gets back to the car. He made his point: There can only be one boss in the organization, and he is it. If she crosses him again, he won't miss. Now they'll hash out their disagreements and eventually patch things up.

Eternal Pamnation said...

Also, when Liz was in her bedroom at the summer palace, right before she looked at the photo of the swing, there was another photo in view--it was off to the right, I think. The focus wasn't sharp, but the camera stayed on it long enough to make out that it was a picture of 2 little girls.

lara1 said...

Lisa Dale Jones #58, Patter #59, Re Kaplan/possible Kirk connection. Yes, I thought it was strange how Kaplan got out of the car exactly as Mato was walking up as if to warn him. I think she had some other behavior that I questioned.

- In the last episode, she lingers behind to listen to part of Red and Esteban's conversation before leaving. How did Kirk's men know Red was on the way?
- Again, where did Kaplan get the gun in the house to retrieve Agnes?
- That weird scene after the car crash.
- She knew Mato and was a good friend of his contact (Nikko?)
- There were one or two more subtle scenes last night and last week where she seems to be listening in on the conversation - sort of skulking around - like when Red exited the building with Manny after the cop card game scene and were discussing next steps.
- She sounded very bitter in last night's episode. Was she turned against Red?
- She refuses to back down or apologize to Red, even when its plain that her actions pained him in terms of his relationship to her. She could have stood her ground, yet apologized if that was painful for him. I think another person who was close to someone who did something like that would have. Like, I'm sorry I caused you pain but it was the only way. She seemed made of steel that Liz and Agnes were her prime objective, not him.
- She also said in the season finale "Agnes is my priority."

I also wondered if she had a connection to Mato and/or Kirk and/or was working for Hargrave/Kirk all of this time. Appearing loyal while assisting. Red would never suspect. That twist would not surprise me.

It would also be a huge twist if Red turned out to be right about her after all.

Maybe none of that is true and it did not happen that way. But whatever happens, Kaplan is coming back to haunt him. Did anyone catch the lyrics that played as Kaplan lay on the ground - about chains and the ghost that you can't see....

As horrible as it was, I think that scene was very well done.

eastcoast said...

lake Girl and any one else frustrated like myself...
Just wanted you to know I just saw the preview next week and it looks like Dembe comes for her. I broke it down frame by frame and you can hear him say "Kate". I hope he is there to help her.

There are also promo pics for episode 4 on spoiler tv. They are nothing much. Just looks like Liz trying to explain herself to the crew about why she didn't tell them what she was doing.
I hope the writers can see reality and have her say that they all have big mouths! That is what I would say and several other people I know besides the fact that they had to look like they were grieving for real or Red would threaten their life.

Time to get on with my day! We took in a lot of rain here on the east coast. I can see patches of ground to walk on now and I am getting ready to go out and see if it got into any of the sheds or garage? It was pretty high earlier...

eastcoast said...

I meant to say that actually Dembe looks like he has her on some type of wood pushing or pulling her out of the woods?

Maybe someone else can look at that and let me know if they see the same thing?

lara1 said...

Further thoughts on Red/Kaplan last scene. I've changed some of my views since last night after seeing some of the Gifs and rethinking it this morning. Now I don't think that Red was cold as he shot Kaplan, I think the opposite. As he walks away, his face looks pained, almost in shock and he walks very slowly and heavily back to the car.

I think his sense of betrayal was deeper than we perhaps know. WE don't know their history but I have a sense that he did something very significant for Kaplan way back when and continued to support her over the years. Something created a very strong bond.

I also think that maybe he did in fact buy that parcel of land intending to give it to Kaplan eventually. He was very purposeful in bringing her to that spot and I don't think it was just because it was remote and beautiful. He was so bitter at what he saw as his turning against him and so full of rage - "you have no control" that's what love is - of any sort. Like when someone you love does something to betray you and your response is, I don't know who you are any more. Red - "I'm standing before a stranger" or words to that effect.

Not defending him, but I think it was not a cold action. The way that scene was filmed, with Kate lit from behind and the sun shining on her as she fell - as horrible as the scene was - that was very powerful imagery. And both actors superb.

DZ731 #63 - yes I read that too about Red. I also read something where they said that Red will be forced to make some decisions outside his comfort zone and will have to cross a line that in the past he would not do. maybe this is one example of that.....

lara1 said...

east coast - I can't tell that its Dembe but whoever it is does seem like they have Kate on something and pulling her somewhere.

If its Dembe - taking a great risk. Or - does Red send him back for her? Somehow though I think once Red makes a decision, that is it.

I guess we'll have to wait till next week, and the next promo.

DZ731 said...

Eternal Pamnation - Very interesting about the photo of the two girls. I'll have to look for that on my rewatch. I suppose it is possible that Red just grazed Kaplan. But if he did, what was the point?

Eastcoast - Is that really Dembe in the promo pulling Kaplan on a travois, or do they want us to think it's Dembe? The person appears to be a black man, and he's wearing a grey shirt similar to the one Dembe had on. But Dembe's gray tee looked tight fitting, and this one is a loose shirt. I couldn't hear a voice on the promo.

lara1 said...

DZ731 # 75 and others - I don't think Red intentionally grazed Kaplan. Horrible, but I think he shot her to kill her (its yours -for all eternity" - or words to that effect. - angry and bitter) My latest thought is that subconsciously his aim wavered slightly at the last second. He doesn't realize it. So she unintentionally survives . I don't think he wanted to just graze her or miss her, it looked pretty final to me. Just my opinion of course.

My heart is breaking every time I think about that scene.

Kim said...

Truth be told, I haven't seen it yet, and yes I read spoilers FIRST
But I wanted to throw this out there for a while. I have been thinking that Red and Kate have to be related. Maybe brother/ sister. Close, tight, loyal but strained...doesn't it make sense as a sibling love-in-conflict relationship?

Kodiak said...

Hi, all!

I apologize for not being around. We have a baby Kodiak now and my time just runs into the woods.

Can someone talk me out of being frustrated with this? Did someone say ep 2 would have "truth bombs?" Cause either they were none (Kirk is lying) or everything we've seen and tearing down often (fire and all that) is false. :(

And Kaplan really, really bothered me. Because either Red is just never going to advance as a person, or it's another fake death.

Anyhow, I hope you are all well. No offense to any of you fine people that I haven't been around!!!

DZ731 said...

Kodiak - So good to see your post, and congrats on the little Kodiak! I guess one of the truth bombs was Liz remembered being at the Summer Palace. So now she's more inclined to believe Kirk. Another truth bomb was Kaplan saying Liz was put in her arms as a baby. Unfortunately those "truths" seem to conflict.

Tatiana said...

Kodiak - congratulations on the cub! :-) The question is has anyone in your household had any sleep?

I wish I could talk you out of your frustration with last night's episode, but I have to say, I'm really disappointed with the show. I have to do a re-watch though.

If Kirk is who he says he is, then we need to be given the opportunity to start trusting him again. I cannot believe for a minute that he would be comfortable with separating his granddaughter from his daughter, especially as a newborn. I also thought he was naive in the way he handled the baby kidnapping and keeping Liz locked in a room. So far he hasn't appeared to be much of a criminal.

Red is despicable. I know he's a bad dude, but this turn over to being a thoroughly horrible person is such a sharp contrast to Cape May - and that was only a few episodes ago.

My sense is that there wasn't adequate detail spent on developing the transition from trusted friend to horrific, irredeemable soul for Red. And irredeemable soul to trusted father as Kirk is now being depicted. It's just not believable considering how those characters were already developed.

On a side note, I feel disappointed because this is becoming more like a soap opera (and I do not like soap operas) rather than a tale of intrigue, deception, mystery, and spies (and I love a good spy tale).

Perhaps I'm not very clever, but it seems like we've gone way off track. I don't trust the producers on this journey. I feel like we keep getting deceived. Anyone else feel this way? There's no way we can reasonably determine the ultimate outcome with the clues we've been given.

"65 CngRed said...
Here's an 'endgame' idea...The last name on the list? Reddington himself. Dispatched by none other than Liz - forehadowed in 3.15 Drexel"

My husband and I have felt for a long time now that Red is the #1 Blacklister and that Liz will probably out him. I had not thought of Drexel's painting though. Good point.

Well, we'll probably re-watch. I'm interested in seeing if we'll get any other previews. We don't have much to go by.

lara1 said...

Questions/thoughts on Kirk and the Summer Palace

I wish we got just 5 more minutes of Liz picking up her childhood things in her room....

1. Why was "Katya" dressed like Kaplan and was she for real - i.e. was she just acting out a role? So, Kirk has not been to the place in years yet he still runs it like an occupied home?

2. The Masha drawing - questionable. Also did anyone remember that the drawing in fire house (if that was real) had people with light colored hair?

3. For me, the photo with the swing and the swing right outside the window - giving the Liz the answer she is looking for - a bit too convenient, but maybe true

4. Did anyone catch what the other photo was on the dresser, when Liz picked up the one with the swing?

5. were those really Masha's things, if so where did they come from - did Kirk have them all these years, or did he get them somewhere else - if so where and from whom?

6. Was the house fire house? I don't think so - the house itself looked "old" almost historic, to me. but I think maybe the contents and Liz's "room" could have been fabricated. A lot of the stuff in her room looked too pristine. Maybe it was there at one point, but re-created

7. Was this the house by the water? i don't recall seeing a view of the water but it was on Cape Breton Island - and why Cape Breton?

8. Why was Kirk in Novosibirsk - in Siberia? energy, in charge of a Gulag, part of the academy there or none of these?

9. When the FBI arrived, Did Liz go into the house to save Kirk or helpcprevent him from leaving?

For me this was all really confusing. Why doe Liz remember the buried coffee can?
Red knows the place. But how could Liz be living there as a child if Red put her in the arms of Kaplan as a baby? Unless Kirk was never there - it was Katarina and Liz. But then, Kirk owned it but ever came there?

And Red still thinking Agnes is in danger. That's what keeps me thinking this is at least part fabrication on Kirk's part.

Something is really not right but I can't figure it out. Also, I still think somehow there were two girls. And maybe two girls in fire house. But who - another daughter of Katarina's, Reds daughter, a twin? What if Red swapped their identities somehow? questions, questions!

I am thinking this is building to a major scene and major reveal - Red is going to be forced to reveal something to convince Liz Kirk's story is not true.

Charmed said...

Kodak #78

Well hello and congratulations Papa Bear!

I'm really trying here, but it has been a strange experience with the first two episodes.
It's not what I had anticipated on a couple of levels and that's usually a good thing!

Major real life stuff going on with a few of us. I'll check back with y'all soon to read more great comments.


lara1 said...

Kodiak # 78 - Congratulations on the little one!! :)

Tatiana #30 - you make a good point about not transitioning the characters of Kirk and Red enough to have a more "realistic" set of actions from them in this episode. Unless Red was right all along about Kaplan but that's a big "if" ,and even so.

I do think these episodes have gone off track in that they provide drama but not too much intrigue or mystery in the sense of spies/blacklisters etc and how Red turns the FBI hunt to his own advantage for a secret agenda we only find out about at the end. I've heard that they are supposed to wrap up the Liz kidnapped storyline in episodes 2/3 so hopefully that happens. I do think they had to devote some time to closing the gaps from the end of Season 3, but I hope they do that quickly. There was little to go on , clues etc to discover in these two episodes, the writing was not that complex, though we did get a bit of reveal about Kaplan.

On the plus side, I thought the acting between Spader and Blommeaert in last night's episode was outstanding. And, we are getting much more of Red/Spader, whereas I think he had a more minor role in the second half of Season 3.

Kodiak said...

Thanks, everyone! I have one of these non-sleeping babies, it seems. Didn't know they made these.

Tatiana #80 Yeah that pretty much it how I feel, but you said it better! I'm a little not sure what to think.

DZ731 #79 Thanks. Well maybe I need a rewatch but.... I am kind of saying that if that really is Liz's recall, and that is the truth, it's a little disappointing to think all the tearing down of fire night we've done means zilch. And I think we all figured Mr K was around Liz as a baby last season after her and Red talked about it.

Lara1 Lost your comment number, but yes, the asking was good.

Hi Charmed!

Honey West said...

Congratulations on the new cub, Papa Kodiak! That's wonderful! Thought about you when I was in Kodiak in August.

I am just going to add to my #54 comment last paragraph that not only does Red seem to want to keep Liz in a phony, safe, "home". But so does Kirk. The only difference is the location, but both are equally fake. Kirk told her that the house was for her and Agnes. A perfect place to raise a little girl. But it seemed more like a film set than a home. And then there was the Director's comments about Red keeping her in a box.

lara1, the photo behind the swing photo shows Katarina and Masha, not two little girls. I freeze-framed it to see. Good catch! I didn't even notice it on the first watch.

Honey West said...

Okay, this is driving me nuts. Something is just not right with the Mr. Kaplan business and I just can't put my finger on it. That said, I love the way she believed so strongly in what she did as being right and her refusal to make it easy for Red to kill her. And her speech to Tom about being the cleaner was just great!

But I keep going back to the thing with Mato after the car crash. Where he appears to be telling her to zip her lips. Obviously she recognizes him and we find out that she knows of him through Little Niko, who is someone that she appears to owe a great deal. Yet, she still hands Niko over to Red and Tom, knowing that he will probably be killed. And I'm sure she knows that no matter what she does, Red still plans to kill her when he gets a few minutes. Her fate was sealed the minute she came up with the plan to get Liz away from Red. So did she tip off Mato when she got out of the car? Or was it a coincidence after her exchange with Tom? When she rescued Agnes from Romina, how did she still have a gun? Who gave her the gun? The only ones in the house that we know of were Romina, Agnes, Dembe and Mato.

Also, in episode 1, if I'm not mistaken, Kate did change her clothes at some point after they got to Cuba. So, Iowa Watcher #44, there might be something to your vest idea. When Red kills someone like that he always aims for the heart, he never shoots them in the head. And I can't tell from any of the promos if Kate has blood or mud on her clothes. Or who is dragging her off on what looks like a wooden sled of some sort.

One thing for certain, any answer we get leads to two more questions or maybe even a dozen new questions.

Anonymous said...

In order for Kaplan to get Liz to a hideaway in rural Cuba, she had to have gotten help from contacts on the island. And Kirk just ended up being able to pay more.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

I'm a bit perturbed the show-runners have decided to off the heads of the various numbers. Mato could have been a great recurring character over many episodes, especially with his "native" wisdom - but now we'll never know.
The show-runners have obviously tried to turn Red to the extreme dark-side as he was becoming a bit too "Bob Hope" last season.
What that leaves us is classic NBC gift-wrapped eps with a slight cliff-hanger at the end. (this week - Mr. Kaplan)
What I do know is if the quality of the writing, direction and over-arching story don't improve by the 7th or 8th episode this year - ratings might start to gradually evaporate - and Spader might decide to leave the project as he's done several times in the past. A Blacklist without James Spader is like a Person of Interest without Root or an earth without water.

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Not sure why I came through as anonymous! That was me just now.

Lake Girl said...

Kodiak, congrats on the new cub! I'm sorry you got one that doesn't sleep. My daughter started sleeping 6-7 hrs at night when she was a few weeks old. My one foster baby had a hard time sleeping when he was first here. Took a few months to get him to sleep through the night.

lara1 said...

Hi Honey West #86 and Lisa Dale Jones # 87 - I am with you both. See my post # 70 if you haven't yet had time to read through everything, with my list of Kaplan questions/off things.

something else I remembered after I wrote that post is that when Kaplan first says it was Mato who took Agnes and Red says, how do we find him:

Kaplan: I don't know
Red: You don't know, or you won't say?

I think maybe she was trying to balance the Kirk/Mato thing with Red and walking a fine line. Then she tells Red.

I'm even starting to think whether Red did in fact find out she was working with them - he had people looking into her movements once he found out she arranged for tom to flee with Kirk. And Kaplan did it because of Liz and Agnes. What she says to Red before he shoots her, something like - I know too much, I know your secrets etc. Why would that be an issue if she only made a lapse in judgment in helping Liz and Agnes? Say if Red just banished her and kept close tabs on her? Why should he be worried, and kill her because she knows his secrets? She always knew them. True, he felt he couldn't trust her. But it feels like its more than that, somehow. Because she was involved with Kirk, and may tell him things?

Total speculation of course. But I think you are onto something - it doesn't all fit together neatly, at least not right now.

lara1 said...

That's "tom to flee with Liz" (not Kirk) in my comment # 91. LOL

lara1 said...

Honey west #85 - thanks for the info on the photo. I just could not see it at all. And good point, each want to keep Liz in their own version of "home", again kind of like mirror images of the other.

davemorris said...

Basically this appears to be turning into a giant custody battle over Liz between Red and Kirk. I wonder where they are going with this, and why the FBI is continuing to be involved. I feel really bad for Liz and all the confusion she is probably feeling.

The Red/Kaplan scene at the end reminded me of the ending of "Of Mice and Men" where George took Lennie to the field that he liked and shot him at the end so he would have a painless death. I feel like that was where Red was going with that.

Then again, Kaplan could be alive. A lot of people cheat death in this show.

Honey West said...

So basically, in the end, Red told Kate "You're fired."

All silliness aside, what this does mean, assuming she survives long enough, is since she now no longer works for Red she is free to tell someone, like say Liz, his secrets. She is no longer bound by any disclosure agreements with him or his business. She becomes a real wild card. As long as she survives, that is. The question is, what will she do, or be able to do, with her new powers? Maybe this whole thing with Kate was to plant the seeds of Red's eventual fall or whatever it is they have planned for the end of the story. I still don't know how Red could have missed. He's too good at being lethal. It was either on purpose or else she had taken precautions with a vest or something as Iowa Watcher suggested.

Very good point, Lisa Dale Jones #87. I don't think she was working with Kirk, though. He only found out she was there after his people discovered her while they were following Tom and Agnes. Remember when his guy showed him that file folder in the hangar? I'm sure that was a photo taken that showed Liz or something that could only lead to Liz. Kirk immediately flew off to Cuba himself. So whoever Kaplan was working with in Cuba, it was someone else. Of course she chartered the plane for Tom and Agnes from that associate who never suspected that Kate wasn't acting on Red's behalf.

Honey West said...

Just looking up information on Novosibirsk. It's the third largest city in Russia after Moscow and St. Petersburg. It's located in southern Siberia and has been called the "Chicago of Siberia" due to its rapid growth and industrialization during the Soviet era. Nothing much jumps out about it except it is a major industrial manufacturing area and a center for scientific research. And a major stop on the Trans-Siberian Railway. Leading industries include aerospace, nuclear fuel, turbo and hydroelectric generators, textile machinery, agricultural machinery, electronics components, metallurgy and metal-working. I guess maybe the nuclear and hydropower parts might be why Kirk would have interests there.

lara1 said...

Honey West #95 - good points on Kirk/Kaplan. I still think something was off, though. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

I watched another GIF of that last scene. Red's hand is shaking when he takes the shot. Not a straight line. I wonder if he misses but does not realize it. Or at the very last moment he waivers. I suppose a half inch could make a difference. But I agree I don't think he would intentionally aim with a straight shot and miss.

If he intentionally missed though I wonder what purpose that would serve. As you point out, Kaplan can then become a real wild card especially if she has his secrets. Unless at the last moment Red waivers and wants to see where she goes, who will protect her (she will need that I think to ultimately escape him and be safe)to see if she really was working with another agenda. He is always planning, plotting ahead.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

I'm now looking forward to next week because enough questions have been raised in my mind.

Honey West said...

Eternal Pamnation (love the name!) #68 and lara1 #97, those are very valid points. It is very possible that he missed intentionally in order to see what she might do next. If she is actually working for someone else that would be one way for him to find out. Yes, he does try to stay several moves ahead at all times, so that's very possible. I guess we will just have to wait and see. It was a powerful scene, I hope it actually leads somewhere.

Anonymous said...

Shooting Kate? Really?
They may have lost me.

lara1 said...

Theory on the House (Summer Palace)

So I am trying to reconcile how Liz could have spent her childhood at the summer palace when we know from Red and Kaplan that Red entrusted Liz to Kaplan as a baby. So I have this idea:

What if the memories she sees actually took place, but at a different house? By setting up her "room" with her "things" (compete with "fake" Masha drawing?), putting the photo with the swing in there, and the swing (all too conveniently for me) right outside the window of that room, is Kirk planting a powerful power of suggestion in her head?

Liz doesn't remember the house per se. She remembers flowers alongside the walk from the front door, she thinks that she has now been back in her "room" and that the swing in the photo is right there. So she is having some of what she knows of her childhood memories but they actually took place in a different house. If her memory was messed with more than re fire night, she might only have fleeing pictures of her childhood. Plus, I don't think that many of us can recall with a lot of detail their existence as a four year old. We just don't remember back that far. Certain experiences maybe but detail of day to day, I don't think so.

So by putting this powerful suggestion in Liz's head, he is hoping to convince her that she is "home". The question is, why?

OK , the coffee can - I wonder if that actually was somewhere else and then dug up. It could even have been outside fire house and Katarina went back and dug it up after the fire, and when Liz was taken away to safety, to have it closer. Maybe she knew they'd never be back to fire house (if i even survived at all). Speculation of course but its the only way I can explain it. Kirk could have somehow got hold of it and replanted it. To me, Liz was able to dig that up too easily with her bare hands.

Just a theory. Kirk may or may not think he is her father but I don't trust how the summer palace, owned by Kirk, suddenly becomes a place where Lix spent her childhood. I could be entirely wrong, but that's my theory of the day, LOL!

lara1 said...

Post #10 - I forgot the add that Kirk could have had "Katya" turn up in an outfit like Kaplan wears, to further cement these impressions in Liz's head on a kind of subliminal level. That story about Katya's mother being the former caretaker may or may not have been true.

My only other idea is that Red planted Kaplan in that household to guard Liz. But it still doesn't make entire sense to me that she would have been in Kirk's house with all of the stories we have heard and it doesn't seem to me Liz was taken as a child but as a baby. Just mu opinion of course.

lara1 said...

oh yes, another omission - Katya calls her Elizabeth and not Masha. That's weird to me. Again, trying to suggest Kaplan?

Honey West said...

So, how many changes of clothes did Kate take with her to Cuba? She wore three different suits between Esteban and Mato. The last one she had changed into for that last ride.

I also paid closer attention to Kate getting out of the car just as Mato showed up at Little Niko's. At first I thought that she saw him and said she needed some air, but I don't think she did. She never looked like she had seen him and looked totally surprised to see him when she got out. Then she ended up hitting him with the car.

When Mato hit their car and Kate saw him, he actually kissed his finger and put it to her lips. He wasn't telling her to zip her lips. I'm not sure that he was greeting her with any affection, but I do think that it was a sign that they knew each other. Later we find that Little Niko is their mutual acquaintance. How much more was there? That we don't know. And maybe it's important, maybe it's not.

When Kate rescued Agnes I think she may have used Dembe's gun. When Mato tackles Dembe at the top of the stairs his gun goes flying down into the hall where Kate later confronts Romina. When Red enters the house, Dembe is getting to his feet and he has his gun in his hand. Red turns to find Kate holding Agnes. And she doesn't seem to have a gun by then. So did Dembe dispatch Mato? And where did Romina go? Did Kate say give me the baby and get out of here? Dembe was getting the worst from Mato. Did he suddenly rally and chase Mato away? I kind of don't think so. Kate may have saved him, too. I think whatever happened in those few minutes may come back into play later, somehow.

Anyway, just some rewatch notes.

Tabasko said...

Hi, Anonymous #99: I am not a fan of that one myself, but as a rule we don't allow Anonymous posting. If you post with us again, please choose a posting name or use a Google account. Please see the FAQ's for more information.

Hi to everyone, and a couple of faces we haven't seen for awhile, including Kodiak (good job, buddy!), davemorris, and Eternal Pamnation.

DZ731 said...

The thing that really makes me mistrust Kirk is his denial of fire night. We've seen fire night in both Liz and Red's memories, and it has played too big a role in the series mythology to have never have happened.

Honey West - I noticed Kaplan's many changes of clothes too. The last change was only the blouse I think. I too believe the gun Kate used on Romina was Dembe's.

lara1 - The coffee can was too easily dug up. I thought that drawing was supposed to be Katarina's and not Masha's. If it's a duplicate, then everything else is probably a duplicate too.

I think that line about Kaplan's head being torn open all those years ago will play a role in her survival. What if she has a metal plate in her head, and that deflected the bullet? On my rewatch, it looks as though she is struck by the bullet in her head or neck area. Watching the Kaplan execution scene again, I was struck by several things. Red's gun was shaking in a similar way to Liz's when she shot Connolly. And Red did have a look of extreme sorrow on his face as he walked away. It wasn't easy for him to kill her.

lara1 said...

Hi DZ731. I agree about fire night. Its too central to the story. And braxton knew about it too. Its funny, in a way, both kirk and red dont want liz to remember that night, maybe for different reasons - mirror images of a view again.

I thought the same thing when i rewatched the last scene. Red's aim was definitely shaking like Liz's in connolly. Extreme emotion, or something else? Also, he aimed up instead of the usual chest shot. The odd thing for me was he only took one shot whereas he usually does more if he really wants to finish the job. The head plate idea is interesting. The question is, i guess, did he know that.

I also think he looked very sad almost in shock as he kind of wandered slowly back.

lara1 said...

Honey west #103 - interesting observations. That makes sense re the gun that kaplan got in the house. I wonder why she let her get away? Maybe she thought they would lead them to liz.

david3616 said...

I agree with Tatiana #80. I am disappointed at the recent turns of events. I have been a huge fan of Blacklist from the beginning. My wife and I have watched all of Seasons 1-3 twice, and some episodes three times. Although the "crime of the week" was usually entertaining, our real interest has been in the developing of the long term relationships among the principal characters, and most of all, Red and Liz. We knew that Red might be good or bad, but we thought that he was fundamentally a "good guy" who was trying to save Liz--and now Agnes as well--and bring down the evil and corruption (especially in high places) that mysteriously ruined his career and life about 25 years ago. If, instead, Red is really a dastardly villain, then my interest will quickly nosedive. This has become more like a soap opera with the screen writers jerking things around to pave the way for the spin-off Redemption series.

If Season 4 cannot promptly rescue the fundamentals of what made Seasons 1-3 so strong, the time may come when I am not even watching Blacklist any more--although I suppose that curiosity will keep me going for a while. And the acting is really good, still.

david3616 said...

Houses--the fire was in a Victorian house in the Washington DC suburbs. In Maryland? I forget where we were told in Season 1, but we saw Red's memories on his return there, and how at the end of that episode he had the house blown up and destroyed.

The "Summer Palace" (another illusion to Decembrists and the Czarist family), was, according to Kirk, a vacation house that Masha liked.

So both houses presumably (if Kirk is telling the truth, and also supported by Liz's memories) existed when she was a little girl, there is no conflict with the memories that we have seen.

I am still trying to work out how (1) Red handed Liz/Masha as a baby into Kate's arms and told Kate to protect Liz/Masha and (2) when Liz/Masha was around 4 years old (?), there was the fire in the Victorian house and Red's turnover of Liz/Masha to Sam. If Kate was still around in Liz's life then, why wouldn't Liz remember Kate in that role now?

eastcoast said...

Kodiac, congrats!!

I only had time to skim through a few of these.

Honey West,#86,

I think she had the gun under her jacket like i have seen before.
I thought she changed her clothes because Red got blood on her when he cut the guys head off.


I was liking Red the way he was, I didnt think he was Bob Hope at all, lol.
I felt like he was trying to right some wrongs in his life and
looking for that second chance like he said to Liz in the pilot.
I truely do not think he has thought out the way this will make Liz feel.

David3616, #108,

the house was in Tacoma Park, its house number was 66.

About Dembe most likely going back to her...
Red might have asked him to go back and bury her body and he finds her still alive.

I had this thought last night, Given the circumstances of how long Kaplan and Red have probably known each other I wonder if Kaplan had a motherly type roll with him for a while after Red found him in 1993 at 14 yrs old?
He said he had made him well and saw to his education. He really played a fatherly roll to him. The look on his face was almost disbelief. When Red and Kaplan are going into the woods it looks like Dembe starts to go after them and then stops.
I am wondering the impact this will have on him also.

lara1 said...

Eastcoast #110 - i never thought about it, but its possible that kaplan did look after dembe, at least initially. Liz would have been with sam by then (1993) and dembe though 14 would need someone with him at least initially even if there was some sort of boarding school arrangement.

Red doesnt think when it comes to liz. He is like a bull in a china shop. After anslo garrick he killed eferyone even the emt nurse who was forced to dig out the computer chip in his shoulder. And his grey suit guy newton that sold out red. Braxton, same thing. Niko pointed it out in season 2 during the Berlin threat that he had become reckless. I am starting to seriously wonder if he is undergoing some sort of mental decline. Paranoia, distorted reality. Its not that bad yet, but i do wonder. Loacoon and i had some discussions on a related topic to this during the summer on the general theories page i think.

I never knew that the house number in Tacoma Park was 66. Lol, you still learn stuff about this show even after watching certain episodes 3-4 times!,

Lake Girl said...

Honey West #103, I hope your right about Kate not seeing Mato before she got out of the car. I haven't got to watch it a second time, and to me it looked like she got out of the car because she saw she was warning him. I would love to be wrong about that! Still, something feels off with Kate's behavior.
They need to give us at least a few answers, make a few things make sense. And they need to wrap up this kidnapping storyline. I agree with those who say the show is a bit soap opera-y. Never liked to watch soap operas.

lara1 said...

BBB #88. To me, its like they are trying to re-set Red back to what he was like in Season 1, when the audience had a lot more questions as to who he really was, was he bad, was he manipulating Liz etc. When I re-watched Season 1 over the summer, I was a bit surprised to remember how menacing Red was back then. He really was colder and more brutal, less understandable, especially in H1 of the season. The whole mystery with Tom back then as well really had people thinking, is Red on the level, is he telling Liz the truth, etc. ?

So perhaps trying to put ambiguity back into the character and have us wonder is he really bad after all we have learned about him, is his endgame entirely self-serving after all etc. (which is why I think that Season 1 can't be recaptured, because we know more about him and his caring for Liz and we have, naturally, got to know him better, particularly in Season 3 - or have we? LOL).

lara1 said...

TAtiana #112 - you know, in a strange way, after what has happened I'd almost rather that it turns out that Kaplan had really betrayed Red - possibly trying to assist someone on the "other side". That would make Red's actions, or what we know of them, more understandable, that he was right all along not to trust her, have her tag along in Cuba, Texas etc. and introduce some interesting plot twist. That would in some ways also be better than the emotional toll this may take on Liz and Dembe.

But I'm going to wait until next week. For all we know, Red had a plan and all is not what it seems.

Trelliswires said...

100 lara1 said...
"To me, Liz was able to dig that up too easily with her bare hands."

The coffee can was shallowly buried and Liz used a stick to dig it up.

Excellent observation previously mentioned: Katya addressed Liz as Elizabeth and not 'Masha'.

I love the ladies on The Blacklist. Charm just oozes from Lottie Verbeek and the actress playing 'Katya'.

We still haven't nailed down the house fire, where was it, who was involved. Was Red living with Katarina from Liz's birth to the fire? Did Liz shoot Red and he recovered in time to arise from the floor and escort Liz from the house? If not, then where did he acquire those extensive and severe burn scars on his back?

Big Bad Bazzer said...

lara1 - re:113
I do think the producers are trying to re-monsterize Mr. Spader's character.
Sorry to joke when I said he went all "Bob Hope" on us in S.2 but its true. He was often full of good cheer, ribald stories, surrounding himself with sensational women.
Its a tough chore as it puts the viewers, especially the loyal ones like us thru the proverbial ringer. But I guess keeping the fans guessing is a large part of a show-runners job!
Too predictable - that's often the death knell....

lara1 said...

Observations of Symbols in 4.02. I got to re-watch this today on a larger TV screen with better resolution! here are some random observations.

General observations.
- A close of up of the swing is the first thing we see as the car drives up to the summer palace with Liz and Kirk
- the red/white portion only of the Cuban flag shows when Kirk takes control of the fishing vessel and is directing his men.
- the red glow on the deck, reflected in Kirk's face in the same scene - was he at fire night? looks like a glow from a fire on his face - and his expression isn't pretty in that scene!
- "Katya" - name is diminutive form of ekaterina. Katya's eyes resemble, in shape, I think, those of Kaplan. Not saying she's related to Kaplan, but if any of it is a deception, could be part of it.
-Kirk calls Liz "Elizabeth" as they get out of the car and he has her ushered into the summer palace (As mentioned elsewhere, Katya also calls her this.)
- First scene of Liz in the house, is her refllection in a mirror, while seated in the dining room
- Katarina with the coffee can is wearing the locket from Cape May
- Young Liz does not seem to have a scar so this should be pre-fire night
- Nice touch with pink bracelet in the time capsule - link back to Beth's bracelet in the pilot
- No piano (that I saw!) but a violin or viola in Liz's "bedroom".

Water/Swimming/drowning references
- The sea plane crashing into the ocean
- Kirk and Liz both starting to drown
- they are rescued by a Cuban "fishing" vessel
- Chasing Niko and Mato in Amarillo - named for amber banks of nearby river
- Red tells story of how he went for a "dip" in the spiritual vortex
- Red describing "the acre" - a diamond in a sea of emeralds

Earth/Burying/boxes etc
- Katarina and young Liz burying the coffee can "time capsule"
- Mato ritual with Agnes - references the earth
- Red describing the sun dance ritual and fear of eternity on earth trapped in a dark box forever, and threatens Mato with sealing him in an airtight concrete crypt

- summer palace - as others have also mentioned, reference to Russian czars, Russian revolution, 1917/2017
- Kirk calls Liz his princess
Is Kirk Russian royalty??

- There is a flag in the bar when they run through a bar chasing Mato outside the bail bond office.

lara1 said...

Other Observations/Ideas on 4.2

After the car crash, REd asks about "the child" instead of Agnes. Strange, I think.

The look on Kirk's face when Liz profiles him.

On the re-watch, Kirk sounded a bit unhinged, and like he, not Reddington is the "evil, spiteful man." When he says "We're family - us - not Reddington" - and "we'll all be together soon", it sounds to me a bit maniacal. But that's just me, probably!

Maybe its just me, but the woman in the swing photo doesn't really resemble Katarina in the photo next to it. different physique, hair color and texture. I saw a comment where someone said the background of that photo, with the tree and lake, with the sun from behind is just like that last scene with Kaplan. I don't know whether its really meant to be Kaplan with the swing in that photo (and Red said it was Liz's mother) but its got me wondering again whether there are two Katarinas and two girls and was there somehow a mix up (or not). But the similarities of the photos are interesting. Hey wait, there's a lake in the background of the swing photo. Anyone catch a view of a lake from Liz's bedroom window? LOL looks like I'm watching that scene again!

There have been various plane crashes in there series. At least one was on or near water (Berlin - Hudson River New York). I wonder if they are telling us that a drowning took place in connection to a plane crash. A bit out there but they devoted so much time to it and the expression on Liz's face when the plane started taking on water got me thinking. Was she subconsciously remembering something? Maybe not but the water and drowning imagery was so strong in those scenes.

Last but not least, re-watching the episode, I think it was put together very well. The acting was exceptional throughout. The expressions and mannerisms of each person in the car at the end driving to the woods in particular were superbly done. I also noticed how Red touched Dembe's arm ever so gently as he asked him to wait by the car.

Tatiana said...

Kodiak: I didn't sleep for 6 months when our little cubbies joined the nest. Yes, that was plural. A boy and a girl. Twins. One had colic and the other had reflux. I kept wondering why Mama Bear and Papa Bear had more baby bears. I'm past the PTSD, but I assure you, I empathize.

Back to our regularly scheduled broadcast

Kate has broken out of her character. When she's in the back seat of the car talking to Tom, you can see her mind churning. She's not going to clean up after anyone any more. It's time for her to break out, literally and figuratively.

We've started talking about Red being the #1 Blacklister and Liz will be the one to take him down. I want to go back to the pilot again to run through it, but the producers have assured us the answer to the puzzle starts from the very beginning. Red says "I'm going to make you famous, Lizzie" How could she be even more famous than by taking down the #1 Blacklister.

Have any of you rewatched next week's previews? I think there's a lot in next week that's going to be interesting.

Honey West said...

lara1 #117-118, interesting observations. We know it is a multi-layered and complex story, so it is good to have these things noted. Regarding drowning, I had a thought awhile back after Cape May that when Red talks about his choice to save the child (once again, "the child" LOL!) because both were doomed, both would die, I had wondered to myself if maybe Katarina had taken Masha with her to Cape May, intending to drown both of them, but Red was there and intervened, saving Liz. But it seemed we had better ideas at the time so I sort of forgot about that one. I never really got any further with it, but maybe his saving of the child didn't necessarily happen during the fire.

Getting back to the re-villainizing of Red. If you think about it, he really isn't behaving any other way than he probably has for the past almost 30 years. Red does what he has to do in order to survive. He has many, many enemies. He rules by his wits and by the fear he instills in others. Liz even asked him how he did it, how he managed every day knowing people were afraid of him. I don't know that he enjoys this type of a life, but it is necessary. Kate told Tom that Red knew what he had to do about her. She knew it, too. Absolute loyalty of his people is vital. Punishment for betrayal must be swift and absolute. No exceptions, no matter how he feels personally about the person. You could see it in those last moments with Kate as he began to emotionally distance himself and finally declared that she was a stranger. Once he did that, he could finally kill her. I think he suspected that there was more to her betrayal than just helping Liz and Agnes get away. It was something bigger. So he couldn't let her go, even if he wanted to. I think he deals with the same "pack" that Dom said he moved to the wilderness to escape from. This "pack" only respects strength and fear. If Red shows weakness he would be taken down and torn apart by the pack. We don't like that he shot Kate, we liked her, but it was totally in character for Red to do it.

David3616 said...

Coffee can: (I agree it was too easy to dig up.) Katya (presumably Liz's mother) said that it was like a time capsule and contained something that Liz could remember her by. Liz pulled out not only the bracelet, but also a Russian doll that was likely hollow. My guess is that it will contain a locket. The locket will open and have the names (and possibly tiny head pictures) of Liz's real mother and father. Maybe Katya was being held at the Summer Palace against her will and feared that she might become a victim. The locket would be a way that Liz could find out about Liz's mother in the future.

My guess is that the real father will not be either Kirk or Red. He might be a brother of Kirk who died in the fire and/or by being shot. Kirk might be interested in Liz and Agnes due to his hemophilia (that I believe ran in the royal Romanov lines). Perhaps transfusions from the females would help him.

lara1 said...

"the Child". interesting references in the past two episodes. Kirk says to his men, "get the girl and the child", something like that. Kate says she took care of what Red most valued in life: his freedom, (something else) and "A child". Red asks about "the child" immediately after coming to in the car wreck.
Honey West, thanks for pointing out "the woman and a child" dialogue from Cape May. I wonder if there are others…..It still gets me thinking that there were two "children" somehow. or, just to Red's Hobson's choice.

David3616 - interesting observation on the Russian nesting dolls. Its possible - and there were those nesting dolls in Red's "apartment" in Bethesda too. A connected theme somehow?

HoneyWest - good observations summarizing Red. I do agree. And, as he said to Kate in Esteban, he can't have people taking decisions that he knows nothing about. Others might do the same…maybe not as significant decisions, but he needs to know what is going on at all times. And, sadly, after my re-watch, I do think that he meant to kill her. But I agree he did distance himself from her with his words - you could almost see the change in his face. Good observation.

It has opened a lot of plot possibilities.

deadskie13 said...

Kodiak: Gah! Jeez-o-peetz! CONGRATULATIONS! I'm so far behind on everything, but I had to do a drive by commenting, as soon as I heard. :D :D :D

DZ731 said...

lara1 #118 - I was struck on my rewatch at the similarities between the photo of Liz and her "mom" and Kaplan's execution. There are the trees and the sun flare. I too wondered if that wasn't Kaplan in the photo instead of Katarina. It sounds like Kaplan played the mother or nanny role when Liz was a baby.

lara1 said...

Kaplan/Mato. ok, I know this is open to interpretation but on my re-watch I could swear Kaplan sees Mato before she gets out of the car. She is looking ahead out of the car and her eyes and mouth seem to open slightly wider and her head go back every so slightly. she then says, I need to get some air, or words to that effect. So if that is the case why does she get out of the car. Hmmmm. But then she runs him over. Maybe she wanted him to run so she could help take him down and get in Red's good graces? Or did she even mean to run him down, or just make like she was trying to? hmmm. And when you think of it, why would she get out of the car anyway, if they are staking out the bail bond place? surely she would know he would recognize her, just from the car crash when he came right up to her. The mystery continues!

lara1 said...

More Clues/Discrepancies (?) in Liz's "Bedroom". I think I saw a couple of what could be important clues when I re-watched the child's bedroom scene. (Its a gloomy rainy day here so lots of time for this! LOL)

The dollhouse - did anyone notice how this resembles the Takoma Park house, in several ways? Its the first thing Liz sees when she walks in and its kind of central in a lot of camera shots in that scene.
The dollhouse has dormer windows in the roofline, a large bay window on the left of the house (I think that was the one Red looked out of in the Frederik Barnes episode); and a sort of recessed porch with the front door, on the right. The Takoma Park house had the bay on the left and the recessed doorway on the right. can't remember exactly if it had dormer windows in the roofline, but I thought it had that, or something like it. The doll house is not an exact copy of course but has the same main features. Also the dollhouse is blue - was Takoma Park a very pale blue? Can't remember exactly.

The mirror - When Liz first walks in, there is a full camera shot of her image in the mirror, with her in the bedroom doorway looking in (an illusion?), with the Russian Icon to the side of her on the wall (and I can't tell what icon it is)

The child's drawing - In her memory recall, young Liz is speaking to Katerina in Russian. The book Liz picks up in the house is a child's book (bear on the cover?) , clearly its in Russian. So, would she sign her name to that drawing in English or in Russian? Also, its the same exact drawing that Red picks up in Katerina's trunk in Dom's house and the drawing in Dom's house had no signature - it also had a smudge next to one of the figures which "summer palace drawing" does not, but that might just be how the camera focused.

The swing photograph. This is almost the most interesting. It looks like the same photo, but its cropped very differently from the screen cap I have of the photo in Red's flat. The one in Liz's "bedroom" is cropped to show much more of the tree to the right in the photo, and, I believe, above Katerina. Also, it is cropped more tightly on the left so that the "lake" (I'm pretty sure that's what it is) is cut out almost entirely. In the version in summer palace, the "lake" is just a small white section behind Katerina's left arm, that looks like it could just be the sky. In both photos, the tree is to the right.

When Liz looks out the bedroom window, the swing is in the tree angled facing the house - it looks like the same angle as in the photo. But as LIz looks down at it, the tree is on the left and the branches look different (possible). If you were to walk around the other side of it, so that the tree is on the right, and take a photo that way, I think you would see the house in the background of the photo but I don't see any part of the house in the photo. Lastly, there is no "lake" that I can see when LIz looks out the window at the swing. although from the angle of the photo the house should be in the background instead.

Maybe there is no lake in the photo but it looks like there is. Does anyone have a copy of the photo from Red's flat, that they can see the lake as well? Maybe its not a lake and the photo was taken facing the house, but the house can't be seen because of the camera angle when the photo was taken. IN any case, the photo in Liz's "bedroom" still seems cropped differently from that in Red's flat (based on the photos I have of it, anyway). (and I still think there is a lake in the background, its too similar to the last scene with Kaplan, which also has a lake in the background).

Thoughts? I'm thinking some of what LIz sees/remembers is real, some is not.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Another side question - Mr. Kaplan (Kate) has been near openly defiant of Red this season. She was living on borrowed time.
Begs the question - if she thought what Red was doing was that wrong - why didn't she kill him?

The obvious answer is the Mad magazine answer - ie. he's the main character - but really, she's weaponized. Why not do the deed?

DZ731 said...

lara1 - Yes, the Tacoma Park house was blue. I didn't think of the dollhouse looking like it. But now that you mention it, I can see the resemblance.

BBB - Kaplan's not dead yet. Maybe she will be the one to take out Raymond Reddington.

Tabasko said...

So....... I am not up on Spoilers. Too much Real Life.

Just how sure are we that Mr. Kaplan is alive? It looked to me like a last, ironicly day grasp at the peaceful, green grass on the pristine 1 acre.

For a very serious episode, Red had some good lines.

As others have pointed out, it doesn't wash that Red placed Liz in Mr. Kaplan's arms as a baby, but that she would have been with Kirk in the Summer House as a child. Unless they all knew one another and there was a falling out.

I am sad for Mr Kaplan, either way, but she did screw up. I also don't think she was intentionally warning Mato. I think she made a mistake there as well and didn't think emotionally jumping out of the car. Plus she then hit Mato with her car, so she wasn't helping him evade Red.

I still think Kirk is a big, blood-leaking liar, especially as far as the fire. There is a charred bunny, Braxton knew of the fire, and both Red and Liz have unexplained scars.

I hope she can ask him what happened to her own mother soon.

DZ731 said...

Tabasko - The previews for next week show Kaplan with her eyes open, searching for her glasses. And someone carting her out of there.

david3616 said...

My guess is that Kaplan was in the CIA 20-25 years ago, along with Red, Nikko, and probably others we have seen. Lots of former spooks in The Blacklist. She didn't learn to carry a weapon and shoot with precision aim by being a housekeeper, nurse, governess or whatnot. And "Annie" laying next to Kaplan when Nikko rescued Kaplan--Annie was probably another CIA operative. My guess is that Red was sent on special assignment to extract Katya from Russia, fell in love with her, got her out of Russia (maybe while Katya was pregnant) and was made the scapegoat by government officials in relation to the bombing of the Decembrist meeting that had been attended by Berlin. Perhaps Liz's real father was actually killed in that bombing and had a claim to be a descendant of the Czarist Romanov family. Perhaps Kirk is his brother and now has a claim. (unless Liz were to learn that her real father had the superior claim and now Liz has the superior claim). (If that were true, that would account for why Red doesn't want Liz to know the truth--if she finds out, Kirk or others will kill her--while Dembe and Kaplan want Liz to know so that Liz can better protect herself.) But the scenario of Liz's father dying in the bombing would not jive with Liz's shooting her father at the time of a house fire when Liz was 4. One of the many fun things about this series is that it is a puzzle with lots of clues, false trails, and invitations to amateur (and maybe some professional) detectives of all levels of competence ranging from high to low (like me). LOL

deadskie13 said...

Apologies in advance, for most likely missing a LOT of valid points! You guys are always super amazing, and I keep having it out with reality--and at this point in time, if I don't scramble to write something, next week will already be here. ^-^

Lisa Dale Jones #1: Safe travels, and have lots of fun on your trip!

lara1 #24: I'm not convinced Kirk knew about the can. I don't know. It didn't seem to hold any great secrets, other than to prove to us that Liz's memory of her mom was true. I did find it interesting that the writing on the can was in English, though!

Tatiana #25: Aww! Red's always been bad! It's just that this go around, it's heart-breakingly so. :( But I do understand your disappointment.

eastcoast #32: I hope it isn't Dembe. Because if so, the only way he'd make it out alive, would be if Red were the one who sent him. :(

DZ7231, Lake Girl, lara1, Colleen P, pretty much everyone who is super disappointed: I feel like this is a Stan Lee moment: "Fear not, True Believers!" What I mean is, I still trust the writers. And so hopefully things will make a lot more sense after the next few episodes. ^-^

Iowa Watcher #37: I agree! Mr. Kaplan is an AMAZING character! And, my second favorite on the show. :D And so here's to hoping there's a valid reason for things playing out the way they did, that dear Kate is alive and relatively well, and that it was all a ploy of some sort to make things even out all nice and properly again. Hopefully!

lara1 #47 #51 #73: The only moment of rage and hate I see in Red in this scene, is when he tells Mr. Kaplan that she presumed to know what was right for him. And even then, I just saw this brief flicker; I saw him exhibit more hatred when confronting Naomi's husband.

Oooh, I find it super odd that he only shot her once, and to the head. The plot thickens! :D

And my goodness! While incredibly hard to watch, it really is one of the most brilliantly acted scenes!

eastcoast #52: The understated acting between Kaplan and Dembe was PERFECTION. I think Lizzy is always safe from Red's full anger, on account that he sees her as a kiddo, and treats her as such. I believe he's pretty much tossed her into a "time out" box. :P

lara1 #53/Tabasko #129: I agree--fire night is very much real, and Kirk is a liar-liar-pants-on-fire! Also, I agree that Mr. Kaplan just messed up with Mato seeing her get out of the car. It seemed to me like she was just having a month of Mondays, or something; that once she screwed up with losing Liz and Agnes, she just couldn't seem to get back on track.

Honey West #54 #55: I feel like Red tossing Liz into her box-of-a-house, while Kirk was offering her a palace, is a lot like Red showing her the ugly truth, whereas Kirk is spinning a beautiful lie. The jerk! :P

I'm betting Annie is either Red's wife or daughter from The Farmer Parable/Madeline Pratt story; the burden of existence after losing a family in a horrific kind of way. Someone close to Red, regardless. But of course, it's just a hunch more than anything.

Big Bad Bazzar #62 and DZ732 #63: I don't see Red as the villain at all. Well, yes and no. What I mean is, we're seeing more of him as the villain at the moment, because he's been backed into a corner of sorts. And I always remember that one quote he throws at Ressler in the infamous Anslo Garrick box, in which he says something about how if you don't know anything about him, know this--he's going to be around for the next chapter. And I think that just means he's going to keep doing whatever it takes to survive--and that includes turning cold, sometimes. And, unfortunately, shooting one of the most brilliant characters, ever! D:

Eternal Pamnation #68: I think that's entirely possible, on account that I don't believe Dembe would ever do anything against Red's wishes--and I'm not 100% convinced everything is what it seemed.

deadskie13 said...

Kim #77: I've often toyed around with the idea that Kate could be Red's sister--but I also like the idea of him just having really close friends and associates, who he's met by chance, that kind of compose this amazing surrogate family of sorts. I'm cool with either one, though! ^-^

DZ731 #105: The whole metal plate deal, is one of the options I'm leaning towards, and for several reasons.

First off, I figure it would be out of character for Kaplan to have a bullet proof vest on--she makes no apologies for her actions, and she's resigned to her fate. Second of all, I'm thinking there's a reason we get this story about Kate having previously had a vicious head wound--and then it's conveniently the spot Red aimed for.

And number three: the conversation they have right before Red does the deal, is one in which Kate states she knows all of Red's secrets, and all of his weaknesses and such. She already knows Red is aware of such things. And, she's a lady of few words. She's also not trying to talk him out of anything. But it would be a great conversation to have, if they were aware one of Kirk's people was tailing them. If said person knew the dealy-o of Kate's "betrayal", perks their ears up about how much dirt on Red this lady has, and then witnesses Red "killing" her. Well, if such a person were to "rescue" Kate, then that would put her in a prime position for her to "align" herself with Kirk, and find out where Agnes is being kept. (Whew! That was a lot of hypothetical quotation marks! Winking is heavily implied!) ;)

But of course I'm not sold on the noted above, either. I'm not sold on any one thing, yet. I just trust that things will make more sense as the season progresses. ^-^

lara1 #106: If "The Warrior Gene" is still a working theory, Red's emotional shut down after shooting Kaplan could be a part of all of that. Figure he is a bit of a perfect killing machine--and despite having a wicked sense of humor at times, more often than not, Red doesn't seem to enjoy killing. (Well, with a few the-suspense-is-killing-me exceptions.) ^-^

Honey West #120: I agree 100%--it was very much in Red's character to shoot Mr. Kaplan, just like it was in Mr. Kaplan's character to face her fate head on. What brilliant acting, all around! :D

deadskie13 said...

Aaand, a few notes:

Kirk blabs to Liz about how Reddington can't find her and she shouldn't worry--he's pretty much voicing his own concerns, because after siding with Red on the whole mirror deal, it's more than a little obvious that Liz is very much wanting Red to find her at that particular time. Kirk seems to be a rather antsy sort of fellow.

Red's first thought about coming to in the car crash is "the child"--but his very second thought is, "Please assist Mr. Kaplan." Interesting that he would be concerned for her well-being.

Red forks over Kirk's real name, and all the info he has on where things are at the moment. This is a kind of full trust, that he hasn't dabbled in too terribly much with the Task Force--but there he is, showing his full hand.

I enjoyed Red nodding while ending the phone convo with Cooper lots. ^-^ I don't know. I just thought it was one of those great subconscious slips that shows he really does trust them--and also, that he already knows what Cooper is going to say and do and imply. ^-^

Red chastising Mr. Kaplan and Tom on the jet caused me to giggle quite a bit, as well. They looked like two kiddos in deep trouble for goofing around instead of taking care of business. :D

Ressler says Liz is a friend, and Samar refers to her as a fugitive--so they've pretty much switched positions. There are no sides, only players, after all.

Kirk shoots the guy on the boat, and then leaves him for dead. Red would have not only thanked the man graciously, but would have most likely found a way to repay his debt and gratitude. That is the difference between Kirk and Reddington. Killing without reason is very different than killing out of necessity.

Liz refers to Kirk as a "Classic Narcissist". I believe her evaluations of Red have been much more favorable, despite all the grief he's given her--however intentional and/or accidental.

When Red is conversing with Mato, the clock starts to go "Cuckoo! Cuckoo!" and so maybe Red is a little crazy. :P

There's something about Katya that makes me really not like her.

Red relies on Cooper and Co. to rescue Liz.

Since I'm leaning towards Fire Night having to be real, it's kind of great and brilliant and amazing, to think that Lizzy's walking around with the truth on her wrist all the while.

Kirk keeps talking about how Red fed Liz all these lies about his connection to her and such--and really, Red hasn't. He's never gone out of his way to reveal anything about their shared past--and even killed Sam to avoid as much. So I keep wondering where Kirk is getting this info from? It can't be Kaplan--if so, then she's deliberately feeding Kirk lies. And it can't be the Task Force, because Samar told Liz that everyone wonders about her connection to Reddington. So it would have to be someone close enough to come to their own conclusions, without knowing the actual truth. And at any rate, it's been causing me to narrow my eyes. >:D

And that ending scene! The way Dembe subtly turns to face Kate, and how Red actually looks like Red--all put together, and calm and ready for whatever comes next--when he puts on his hat, and looks up. And then the way Red and Kaplan go on a nice, leisurely stroll, despite both of them knowing what comes next--and how she walks those extra few feet, on her own. And then Red going from purposeful, to briefly angry, to shock, to sadness. It really was a work of art, despite not being a painting anyone wanted to see.

And at any rate, I enjoyed it lots. I just really really really hope that Kaplan is alright and okay, and is somehow still secretly working for Red. Otherwise, I'll be all sad-faced for quite some time.

Honey West said...

Hi Tabasko and deadskie13! We've missed you two. Hope things in RL are better.

I did another viewing of Esteban and Mato, and yes, Kate does change her clothes after Red cuts the guy's head off. He still seems to be dressed exactly the same and is clean, though. He must have been careful to get blood all over Kate and avoid it himself, either that or he has a lot of clothes that look the same. And yes, she changes again after she cleans up after Mato's killing. Maybe Red has a lot of extra clothes for everyone on his jet?

I don't really see any evidence so far of where Kate was shot. We see Red aim and fire but she is silhouetted against the bright sunshine until she spins to her left and falls. And I agree, there may be something to that story she reminded Red about where she had a nasty head wound. And it may be related to how she survives. It would be odd if Red shot her in the head, though. I don't think he ever does that, it's always a shot to the heart. And usually more than one.

deadskie13 #133, I briefly wondered if Red was staging that hit, too, for the benefit of someone who might be watching or listening. I almost thought he looked out towards the water for a moment after he shot her, but maybe he was just taking a last look at the beautiful unspoiled acre that he just spoiled. I don't know who is hauling her off on what looked like a sled in the preview, but I kind of don't think it's Dembe. I almost thought it was somebody wearing a vest, like a hunting vest or something, and they seemed smaller than Dembe. It was a quick edit and they were in heavy shadow, so who knows? Even frame by frame doesn't help.

And I agree about Katja. Something not right about her, but then, that goes with everything about the Summer Palace. I visited the Winter Palace in St Petersburg, but that's where The Hermitage is located. These Russians love their palaces!

I am being lazy about looking up who said it, but that was an interesting point about the Masha and "Mom" photo with the bright sunlight behind "Mom" just like it was behind Kate at the end.

And coming back around to the story Kate was telling about Annie and how she looked and Red saying he didn't know how it looked because he was gone. Could that have been about Christmas Eve 1990? If so, then what was Kate doing there? She could have been there, after all, she's been around at least as long as Liz has and probably much longer.

lara1 said...

deadskie13 - enjoyed reading your comments, good observations. Several things I didn't catch so good to read about them.

Although I'd like the metal plate idea that several people commented on to be the case, I'm not so sure. Does Red even know about it - he said he was not with Kate when she got the head wound, nor apparently during her convalescence I suppose she could have told him about it. But looking at Red's expressions during the drive to the "acre", the dialog he has with Kate at the end, and the song lyrics, makes me think that it's not a plan/fake killing (but I wish it was). Also, Red had a real purpose in bringing her to that spot, and it was remote "wilderness" administered by the Bureau of Land Management - I don't even think its parkland, so I'm not sure anyone was around. I also think Red started being "nice" to Kate (several "thank yous" after the icy cold shoulder and sparring), because at that point he'd come to his decision. So why continue to make her miserable at that point. Just my opinion of course. It could be the opposite.

Anything is possible. These clouds can be pointing one way or the other. I'm very interested to see who finds her/comes for her.

DZ731 #124. I think the similarities of the swing photo to the final scene of Kaplan were shown to us for a reason but I don't know what that is. I've never seen any threads point to Kaplan being either Liz's mother or Katarina (despite her name). And Red carries that photo around with him. Then there's the cleaner scene in Cape May. I wonder if there was a child swap somewhere. But Ive been wondering a lot lately! LOL.

Tatiana said...

Deadskie - this is an excellent point, I'm glad you stated it. Red has said that he killed people who deserved it (I think that was Cape May). Remember that dialogue? There was a man who deserved to be killed, but he did not (referring to Tom). And when he says that, we reflected on his actions and we see that in fact Red is speaking the truth: he kills those who "deserve" it, or for whom justice is being served. I'm pretty sure this code of "ethics" for Red is consistent.

"Kirk shoots the guy on the boat, and then leaves him for dead. Red would have not only thanked the man graciously, but would have most likely found a way to repay his debt and gratitude. That is the difference between Kirk and Reddington. Killing without reason is very different than killing out of necessity."

Colleen P. said...

Wow, so many good posts from everyone and so much to think about! Deadskie13 thanks for the Stan Lee moment "Fear not, True Believers!" I'm a fan of The Avengers and of course Ultron.

I love the idea of Red and Kaplan staging her death for the sake of Kirk's people. There's hope!

If Red shooting Kaplan was not staged - it would be neat to see her protect Liz and Agnes from the shadows. Perhaps at a critical moment she jumps in to save them when Red can't. She was willing to die by Red's hand to hide them from anyone who threatens their safety. Not once has she backed down from her convictions, even initially stating to Red, "I won't tell you where they are." No longer working with Red doesn't change her desire to protect Liz and Agnes. If the time came that Kaplan had to take out Red or die herself to protect Liz and Agnes, she would do it.

lara1 said...

Colleen P - you make an interesting point at the end of your post. Over the past few episodes, it seems like Kaplan's actions have been seen more and more to be for Liz than for Red. She initially said she did it to protect him and his interests from himself but its seeming more and more that its all about Liz and Agnes.

Red's action in killing her (if he really did mean to and its not part of a plan they hatched together) is very serious and I think he was conflicted about it till he finally made his decision. I wonder if the betrayal runs deeper than what we see - both Red and Kaplan are very sparse in their words about what she did.
"what you did", "I did what I did"... What if what she did in protecting Liz/Agnes ran deeper? That she had been working with someone else, and Red figured it out. Somewhere around halfway through the episode or so, Red's attitude to her changes. I think that's maybe when he decided what to do. Is that when he figured it out? Did Mato say anything? Or maybe not and Kaplan did none of those things.

Just a thought. But somewhere along the line it seems Kaplan's priority became Liz instead of Red, so much so she was willing to die for it. I guess we will find out a piece of the puzzle next episode.

Another thing - some of the things that Kirk presumes to know about Liz - how could he know them if he hasn't known anything about her nor seen her since she was "taken" until he saw her on the news with Reddington? How did he know that she craves a "normal" life with a home with a white picket fence? His words to her about Red trying to make it seem a connection to her sound similar to what Naomi said. It sounds to me that maybe he had someone watching her/feeding him info. Not saying it was Naomi or even Kaplan. Someone who had to be close enough to Liz to know most but maybe not all of the story. Just an idea. Maybe its nowhere near that complex.

Honey West said...

I'd like to think it's Tom that rescues Kate. I think he was sincere in apologizing for hurting her friend when they were waiting in the car. She was pretty fed up with both Tom and Red by that point, and rejected his apology attempt. Also their conversation on the jet about not regretting what they did and they'd do it again. But if Tom rescued her it wouldn't be a betrayal of Red. Tom's already on Red's needs-to-die list.

The only thing keeping Tom alive these days is Liz's love for him and being Agnes' father. Probably mostly the latter, in Red's eyes. Well, and he has to go to the spinoff, too. LOL! Actually Red keeping Tom alive defies logic. He should have killed him no matter what Liz thought about it. Seems he could have made Tom "disappear" anytime without being directly implicated. but then, if Liz ever asked him point blank if he'd killed Tom, he'd have to say "yes".

DZ731 said...

deadskie13 - I always enjoy reading your take on things. I especially enjoyed this observation, "I feel like Red tossing Liz into her box-of-a-house, while Kirk was offering her a palace, is a lot like Red showing her the ugly truth, whereas Kirk is spinning a beautiful lie." Also, I would love it if Red's shooting Kaplan was part of a plan they hatched together.

lara1 #136- I don't know why the death shot of Kaplan is so reminiscent of the photo of Liz and her mother. I have never thought Kaplan was Katarina, and I still don't.

Honey West - I too thought Annie might be Red's wife or daughter. And that would be great if Tom were the one to save Kaplan.

Tatiana said...

Ditto on Tom being Mr. Kaplan's rescuer. That's what I thought when I first saw the preview, although as the location is "pristine" and "untouched" I'm not sure how Tom would find her. It is possible that Dembe would tell Tom. Dembe is loyal, but he did tell Liz about the apartment when Red almost died. So telling Tom where Kate is would not be beyond the pale.

Re: the shooting scene, when Red turned around and started to walk away, then paused, it was reminiscent of when Liz "died"

I too thought it odd that he aimed for her head and only shot one time. Inconsistent with Red's previous behavior.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

deadskie13 (#132)
I don't think Red was ever intended to be the show villain. Just that in order to produce riveting TV the show-runners must occasionally make it appear so!

lara1 said...

Tom - still interesting to me that Kirk wants him dead. I started to think about the "mirror image" thing, with Kirk/Red telling almost flip sides of the same story to Liz. What if Constantin knew Berlin? Not sure if Kirk was KGB way back when, its been implied that he might have been, but we don't know. What if Rostov was one of the "old guard" along with Berlin? That could partly explain why he (Kirk) ultimately fell out with the new regime. Just a thought. So - did Berlin share what Tom found with Rostov? or did Kirk at one point "hire" Tom - as Red did (thinking mirror image) and now wants him dead (as Red did), perhaps to keep Liz from knowing?

Just an idea.

lara1 said...

Tatiana #142 - nice observation on Red stopping and pausing after the shooting being reminiscent of Liz's death. Maybe he was a bit shell shocked. I thought for a second he might turn around. I wonder if he just couldn't.

Been wondering too why Red seemed to aim for the head instead of the heart - unusual (at least it seemed like he did, his aim seemed high). Then I thought, maybe that would be more painless? Normally, would that kill anyone more or less immediately? I don't know, but if so that would at least be a kind of mercy for her. Someone earlier in the thread (apologies I can't recall who) said the scene reminded them of "Of Mice and Men" when Lennie is taken to be shot, as I recall, that was a kind of mercy death by someone who loved Lennie, to spare him a worse fate. Maybe. But I still wish it was part of a plan they had.

Iowa Watcher said...

I watched the preview, the one with Mr. Kaplan being dragged through the woods, about 8 times, trying to see who was dragging her. I agree that it was either Tom or someone new, maybe one of Kirk's men.

Honey West said...

Of course she could be going from the frying pan into the fire. It might be more of a kidnapping than a rescue. After all, she said it herself, she knows all of Red's secrets, faults and weaknesses.

Iowa Watcher said...

Agreed, Honey West. Mr. Kaplan might be carted off by an enemy.

I haven't the foggest idea what they are doing with that story arc. It's like when Megan Boon became pregnant, they "rebooted" the show, and there's now this uneven progression of events, such as Red now appearing evil again. I've tried to look at it in terms of a writing problem, but it all seems very uneven to me.

I hope this episode or one very soon helps to better establish the story arcs for this season.

eastcoast said...

Things im pondering on Kirk...

We have to remember this man had at his disposal the network of people watching everyone live 24/7 via satalite! He probably knows a lot of stuff. He was listening to all the things Liz was wondering about.
If that is the case, he most likely knows Red went to Doms and where he is at...
I am waiting to see if Red gets to look in that Palace and sees that picture and remembers seeing it in the suitcase.

Something that Dom said has been bugging me about that picture that Liz found with her name on it. Dom said that the stuff belonged to KR. He said it was all he had left of her. So was that picture drawn by KR?
They are close but not exactly the same. The clouds look different to me.

I agree There is NO way Kirk has no knowledge of the fire as someone else mentioned because even Braxton knew it. Maybe she did shoot Red and he does not want her to believe that. It just surprises me that he would totally dismiss the fire all together. I would have thought he would have come up with some other story about another fire and say she was confused.

I have wondered if KR was pregnant twice?? They were seperated for a while, What if she had a miscarriage while she was away from Kirk and then got pregnant again?

I am trying to figure how Naomi fits into this because she did ask how much Liz knew and she gave Red a look when he said 'very little'.

I was thinking Red made a head shot on Kaplan so she didn't suffer.

Honey west and A few others mentioned that it would be nice to think it is Tom who rescues Kate, that would be really great!
There is a new character coming soon Leon Rippy described as a hunter/survivalist,
someone told me that it has been suggested somewhere on line but I cant find it that he could be the one who finds Kate. That would make sense.

Lara1, #144, That could be a good point about Tom working with Berlin and maybe they had dealings? Kirk has tried to have Red killed and Tom killed. Maybe anyone who could know about his past or is close to her because he wants her all to himself.

Honey West said...

Eastcoast #149, thanks for the reminder about the new character. I had forgotten about him! Yes, that would make perfect sense if he is the one who finds Kate. Reddington went on and on about the isolated nature of that acre of land. A survivalist would find it the perfect place to be. Plus it would give him a reason to be in the story and would take away the need for an established character to get into trouble by helping her. If this is the way the story goes it would give them some interesting things to work with. Good catch!

And I think Kirk is just saying those things about the fire and he knows darned well that it took place. I still think that at some point Constantin Rostov did "die" and became Alexander Kirk. As far as the world was concerned Rostov was dead. Was it to protect him? Maybe he stole the Fulcrum and was a marked man for that, then whatever plan was hatched to fix everything failed and that's why things are as they are today. Who knows? Well, we know there are people who know, but they're not telling! Anyway, if that was the case, then when Red told Liz that her father was dead he wasn't lying.

lara1 said...

i posted link to Megan's today interview on the Linked in page here. Extended cemetery spoiler scene - for those who haven't watched it. Typical Red response! Megan looked so pretty on the Today Show.

lara1 said...

eastcoast #149. That's an interesting idea that Halcyon/Kirk was still following Red after Liz "died". I hadn't thought of that. Red tends to use burner phones and Dom didn't seem to have a digital footprint, but the satellite surveillance would have given information. And that's how Kirk would know what he knows. intriguing!

I'm wondering whether Kirk ever saw that child's drawing before. I thought it was Katarina's, maybe he did not know that. I think its a clever copy so if the clouds are different that would make sense.

Interesting too that Kirk denies the fire completely. I think he not only knew all about it, but may have been there. For all we know, he started the fire. Maybe that's why he doesn't want Liz to even think there was one.

Its interesting that Red and Kirk say the same things to Liz from a different perspective. Like Red said to Liz in Drexel, that he promised her she would have the normal life she wanted. Then Kirk says the same. It's like Kirk picked up on everything and then offers a "real" solution - a palace vs a fake home in a warehouse. But funnily enough, I think the palace is the illusion whereas the warehouse construct is real because you know its a construct. Mirror, mirror on the wall!

I also think there were possibly two daughters. either another daughter of Katarina, or a daughter of Red, figures into the overall picture somehow. I've at one time thought that Katarina's "real" or "other" daughter was placed with someone else almost immediately and Red's daughter substituted and only Red and Katarina knew that. Not sure that idea holds up but its interesting to think about. There are endless possibilities!

Honey West #150 - yes, something is not right in a major way with Kirk. Perhaps he really did "die". I'm not sure though that he's Liz's father, though he may think that. and it might be the "party line" Lots to think about!!

Trelliswires said...

RE: Mr. Kaplan

I don't see a head wound.

Honey West said...

Agree, Trelliswires #153. A head shot would probably not have spun her around to her left like that. And when we see her lying on the ground that is the side of her head we see.

When Red walked away he only paused to holster his gun and then walked on. It's a good thing he didn't check her because he might have seen she was still alive. This makes the story much more interesting because she is.

Tabasko said...

One of the weirder things to me was KR's statement in Liz's "memory"....about the time capsule. Lara1#81, I think you are touching on this.

"One day you will come back here, open it, and remember me."

Almost you like she knew Liz would be gone and/or not be with her for awhile. Or not have a memory of her until she saw the time capsule.

deadskie13 #132, 33, 34: Hello to you! So many good points, I cannot count. I will just sum it up as I agree and no, I do not see Red as the villain now, either. I do enjoy your posts.

Honey West #135: Likewise! I am always here, just not able to carve out time for posts as much. Plus you all pretty much have it covered at the moment! Thank for all the good posts and points.

General question: Why would Red want to stage Mr'. Kaplan's death? It doesn't look that way to me, and I would prefer her alive, although it would sure be dramatic if she had simply been killed.

Iowa Watcher #148: I do agree. The show has felt a little off course to me since they went to Pregnancy Road. As much as I love a baby, I am still not sure to this day about fitting it into the show. I kind of miss some of the previous topics the show was getting into. Political things and spy stuff and such. Maybe soon.

eastcoast #149: It seemed to me Liz decided that room was her bedroom after she saw the things around. So maybe not her actual drawings, but ones that made her think she drew them because the name was there.

Also, why the swing picture if Kirk and Katarina were married? He has no pictures of her that weren't blown out like that? For all we know, he stole that stuff from Red's flat. Don't like him.

Welcome, david3616, and anyone I may have missed.

Iowa Watcher said...

Trelliswires, I've looked at both the global and the regular previews, and I don't see either a head or chest wound in Mr. Kaplain. Granted, some of the photos are in shadow. But I agree with you.

As much as I'd like to believe that whole thing was a set-up, I think that Red really wanted her to die. I think that he missed. She's alive now due to luck (metal plate in her head?) or pre-planning on her part.

lara1 said...

trellis wires and Iowa Watcher - hello! always enjoy reading your posts. I also don't think I see a wound as such anywhere on Kaplan either. but I think in that very last scene just before she clutches the grass, there's some blood under/in front of her head in the grass, and in the promo for this week's episode there appears to be blood under her chin and down her neck. It's very hard to see and there's a chance that it is mud, but it looks like blood in the screen cap I have. Maybe the bullet missed her but she hit her head on the way down.

My theory is that she was hit in the head but it grazed her in a weird way - maybe she moved her head or turned in that last second or because a plate in her head does exist and the force of the bullet just knocked her down or did minimal injury. Hopefully at least that much will be revealed this week.

deadskie13 said...

Honey West #135: Reality is letting up any time soon, but the waves have mellowed out just a bit. Haha! Red and Kate would be neat freaks! It looks to me, like Mr. Kaplan has a small bit of blood around her lower right jaw--not nearly enough for a serious wound, though! ;) I bet any Russian Palace is a sight to behold!

To me, the sunlight around Kaplan just reflected Red's words to her, about the acre--and by extension, Kate--how it was "a diamond in a sea of emeralds".

lara1 #136: I'm not sold on it, either--it's just the option I'm leaning towards, on account that it would allow the best possible outcome: for Kate to still be on Red's side. But I do also think it's possible that it was a very straightforward kind of thing, too. :(

Tatiana #137: The horrible thing about Red's code, of course, is that in this particular instance, it means that all signs point to Kaplan's inevitable death. :( But that's also the brilliant thing, too. :)

Colleen P. #138 and lara1 #144: I'm a fan of too many comics to start listing! ^-^ I do have high hopes of one of these days, giving it a go at writing things out nice and properly in regards to The Blacklist comic book.

I've been thinking a lot about Blacklist Redemption, and how that's an odd sort of thing--the redemption bit. Redemption of who, exactly? And for what? And so I'm wondering if Red has been right about Tom all along--and if maybe he did really do something entirely unforgivable. If maybe he's the reason Kirk has all this info-but-not-really about Liz and Red and such. It could have been something he'd passed along, before falling in love with Elizabeth, and not realizing fully the implications of his actions. Perhaps that's why Kirk is so adamant about having Tom killed off; he'd be a lose end of sorts. And perhaps Tom has no idea who Kirk is, because he wasn't working for him directly--perhaps that's where the Berlin bit comes in, that you mentioned lara1. I don't know.

At any rate, let's say Kaplan follows Tom over to the whole Redemption bit, on account that she screwed up, too. And we all know Scottie is a bit of a mess. And Solomon. And all those other questionable peeps. And so what if that's part of it. That it's about characters from this show and/or previous Blacklisters who have something to prove? I really don't know. Just random prattle, more than anything. Excited to see what they come up with, already. ^-^

lara1 #139: I think I kind of see Kaplan looking out for Liz more than Red, on account that it's her own kind of Hobson's choice What I mean is, she's in a place where she can only save one or the other--and she feels like the best option for saving them both in some kind of way, is to look after Liz. Elizabeth could still function without Reddington, because she's unaware of the full story, and his importance in her life. Red, however, without Lizzy, falls to pieces and pretty much dies on the inside. So it would makes sense to save the one that had the best chance of surviving without the other.

deadskie13 said...

Honey West #140, Tatiana #142, and Iowa Watcher #149: I don't think it's Tom that goes back to rescue Kate, on account that he's with Lizzy in the warehouse--and I think whoever saves Kaplan would have to do so immediately after the fact. :( But it would be great if it was!

DZ731 #141: I most certainly agree. To me, there isn't any evidence that supports Kaplan is and/or was Katerina.

Big Bad Bazzer #143: I gotcha! I also think it's a good reminder of sorts, that "no one is supposed to be too comfortable with Red" as James Spader has mentioned before--and that includes us! Also-also, the show wouldn't be nearly as fun, if they didn't keep us on our toes. :D

eastcoast #149: I don't know if Kirk was interested enough in Reddington at the time, to have him tailed. I remember Scottie said Kirk wanted her to kill Red in the process of snatching Liz--but the main goal was always Liz. And so I think this was a gross underestimation of Red's tenacity and capabilities, on Kirk's behalf. Granted now, he's sitting up straight and paying attention--but I think beforehand he probably only thought of Reddington as a minor annoyance. I could be super wrong, though! And it's a very snazzy idea that Kirk was covering all angles, and from the start. :)

What I get most from the matching drawings is this: that drawing is not the same one from the flashbacks on the night of the fire. Whatever strings Kirk happens to be pulling, it's like he can't get quite there; he can come up with similar things to kind of jog Liz's foggy memories--but he doesn't have all of the exacts in place.

I find it interesting that Kirk has never mentioned The Fulcrum. It seemed to be a pretty hot topic of interest, on the night of The Fire That Didn't Exist, after all. ;)

lara1 #157: I think Megan is just one of those people who always looks like a million bucks. ^-^ I agree that there has to be two little girls, in some kind of way. I think something definitely happened to Red's daughter--and then there's Lizzy, of course.

Tabasko #155: Hello-hello! :D I'm not sure of the why of the matter, either, if Kaplan and Red were staging the whole thing. I just can't fathom as to why Red would fail to kill someone he deliberately set out to. And the only reason I think it could be a ploy, would be on account that they really didn't fool many viewers with the whole Liz-is-dead routine. And, they allowed us to immediately see that Kaplan is still alive. So it just seems like it would be a good set up to pull a fast one on us, so to speak--but I think I keep telling myself such thoughts, because I want Kate and Red to go back to being business as usual so badly.

Iowa Watcher said...

All true, Deadskie. I like your last line -- yes, I'd like to see them back to "business as usual," too. Let's get back to the spy stuff . . . I hope the infighting has just about run its course.

Tabasko said...

deadskie13#159: Yep.

And also on Kirk, Red seems to know what The Summer Palace is right away, but he didn't think to associate that with Liz and Kirk together before he found out where Kirk had taken her. Weird.

I would have thought if it was such a huge place for Kirk and Liz, Red would have thought of it sooner.

lara1 said...

Thinking of what Red said to Kaplan, "You presumed to know what was best for me," or words to that effect.

Maybe Red was even more angry with Kaplan because in causing Liz to disappear, the critical element of his "plan/agenda" (whatever that was) was lost to him. I've always thought that Dembe and Kaplan knew a lot, but not everything re Red's past and what he is up to and why. That he alone has the full picture and plan. And Liz is a crucial part of it, if not the most important part.

So Kaplan may have also acted and took a decision based on incomplete information - maybe also why Red was so angry that Kaplan presumed herself "the strategist". I don't know, just a thought

But does make me wonder if Red is manipulating Liz in some way for selfish reasons. If not for episodes 3.18-3.20, I would think it more strongly. There is just so much going on that we don't know about yet......

lara1 said...

Tabs #161 - I thought that as well. Why wouldn't that be on an obvious list for Red? Unless he thought that Rostov didn't have it any longer.

And I thought it was strange that Kirk said to Liz that Red would never find them, where he was taking Liz. Unless it really was the location of fire house and it burnt to the ground (and Kirk rebuilt it unknown to Red). But strange - the house to me did look old, like it was built in the 1800s or something - with the wooden beamed ceilings, old fireplaces etc. But yes, that was odd.

Trelliswires said...

On another blog covering the Blacklist, it was stated that the "Summer Palace" house was built in 1740. Location of house?

We will have to wait for the next episode to see where Kate was shot. Red is usually carrying a Browning High Power semi-auto and these are chambered mainly in 9mm Parabellum. Any shot to the head with a 9mm or larger caliber will do significant damage. It has been reported that lesser caliber/smaller cartridge shots to the head - where the bullet strikes exactly tangential to the skull - can stay between the outer surface of the bony cranium and under the dense fibrous tissue of the scalp, and do a rim-around the skull without penetrating the cranium or destroying a large amount of scalp.

The metal plates used to cover voids in the bony cranium will not stop the direct hit of a high powered bullet.

Of course, the writers can be as creative as they wish and that makes for the fun of watching The Blacklist. However, I don't think they can get as ridiculously crazy about bullet trajectories as happened with a high profile commission that may have hung itself by subscribing to the 'single bullet theory' that killed / injured two people. That case will need to have more records released.

Honey West said...

Interesting ideas, everyone. I was just catching up so I could finally get to sleep. Went to see Sir Paul tonight and after a great 3+ hour show I just couldn't fall asleep! So I will comment later this morning. But thanks for that gun and gunshot info Trelliswires. Food for thought.

Tabasko said...

Honey West #165: Hope you had a great time!

Laocoon said...

Hi, all -

I've wished since episode 4.1 that I could add something to the discussion. You all have great scenarios!

The only thing that has crept into my mind so far is about the issue of loyalty. When Red told Kate that she could have talked to him about her plan, etc., I wondered deeply why he demanded not just loyalty but adherence to, and knowledge of, specific actions planned.

If Red is a double agent or a counterintelligence spymaster (which side, who knows), then he would need to know everything that is going on. He has to agree to a planned action, because his other moves depend entirely on strict execution, as agreed, by each operative. The operatives wouldn't know all the moving parts, because he's got everything compartmentalized.

This may be obvious, but I'm revisiting it since it frames his behavior in context of what we aren't seeing.

As the story evolves, he's losing direct control but the game is at an increasingly high level. It's not just the blacklister of the week, it involves higher level officials like Hitchens and Panabaker. He has some protection from some people and has some opponents.

I don't have a conclusion from this, but I did want to present a deeper definition of "loyalty."

Honey West said...

Love it, Laocoon #167! I totally agree with your points about loyalty and that would make it make more sense as to why it's so important. The puppet master has to know what all the strings are doing at once, whether the separate units do or not, and they probably would not. Very good!

Honey West said...

All I can say, Tabs #166 is "Yeah, yeah, yeah!"

lara1 said...

hi laocoon #167 - interesting points. Red needs to know what is going on at all times, and can't have others taking decisions he doesn't know about. The flip side of that, I wrote about somewhere on this page but can't find it (LOL!!) is that Kaplan may have taken such a decision not knowing full information, or what the impact may be - as Liz seems to be critical to Red's plan/endgame whatever that is. If Kaplan made Liz "disappear" she may have taken away a critical element (there's that word again!) for success in his plan. So much we don't know about yet...but may explain Red's snarky comments to her about "the cleaner fancies herself a strategist", knowing your own lane etc. He was angry but I don't think he was being intentionally mean - I think he was alluding to the mess she may have caused (some of which we may not see) by taking her own decisions without him. Just some thoughts.

Thursday is almost here!!!

Honey West - lucky you able to see Sir Paul! that's so great. I have never done so. I bet some songs are still dancing in your head!

Tatiana said...

Well, Mr. Kaplan's impetuous plan to find a way "out" for Liz and Agnes led the very people she was trying to protect into Alexander Kirk's hands. Top that on the unbearable grief of losing Liz and Red had no choice. Not in his world. He's the strategist and not only did Kate thwart his plans but she turned the strategy upside down and counter clockwise.

We do have a build up for Kate to defiantly do what she thinks is right and let nothing stand in her way. No longer will she do things to please Red or to make Tom feel better.

I wonder, then, will she reveal the unknowns to Elizabeth? Will she be a single force opposing Red and Kirk?

Red has to be in total control of his "mission". He must rely on his steadfast, trusted, loyal, assistants because he is the sole director in charge.

So I would expect in the upcoming episodes to see Mr. Kaplan throw a monkey wrench into Red's plans. This could be interesting.

By the way, I agree with previous posters re: Kaplan's background. She is very skilled and knowledgeable. I've thought she had advanced medical training when she's performed autopsy on exhumed bodies. She's also knowledgeable about munitions and intelligence. So I'm inclined to believe she's intelligence trained.

I also keep toying with the idea of her being Red's aunt, sister, or even Katerina herself. Let's face it: if Kaplan's head was split in two she likely doesn't look anything like she did prior to that injury, whenever that occurred. So there's another instance of double identity/dual image, etc.

Just thoughts... :-)

lara1 said...

Tatiana - interesting thoughts on what may come next. whatever the next steps, I think that Kaplan's actions may lead us further toward the story of who she really is, her background and why she is so committed to Liz/Agnes to the point of betraying Red.

I think its interesting the hints/not hints they have thrown our way re Kaplan. We see "Katarina" in Cape May as the cleaner, I think that scene is full of clues but I can't decipher them! And then the ending of 4.02 with the image and scenery so like that of the swing photo of Liz and her "mother". Another clue ?

Was Katarina Rostova an alias that each of Kaplan and "real' Katarina had at one time or another? Did Kaplan cover for her at times? and I keep thinking of Mr. Kaplan in North by Northwest - wasn't that character a person who did not really exist? hmmm

Lake Girl said...

Interesting posts by everyone. Wish I had more time to comment. Oh well.
lara1, in North by Northwest, Tornhill was mistaken for a "spy" named Mr. Kaplan. Never made the connection til you pointed that out. I can definately see our Mr. Kaplan being some sort of spy......wonder if that's how Kate got her name, lol.

Tatiana said...

Interesting: Mr. Kaplan was originally meant to be played by a male actor, however, one of the executive producers told them to hire Susan Blommaert.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Here's another possible spoilerooski twist . . .
Instead of Kaplan killing Red and thus reducing the show to rubble - (she knew what was coming) - perhaps she loaded Red's gun with faux ammo (ie. jellybean specials) and Kate was only stunned/concussed by the impact of a non-lethal shot???

Tatiana said...

Agreed, Big Bad, Mr. Kaplan is clever and always prepared!

Chompstick said...

I've posted an Important Notice on the home page

Laocoon said...

#175 BBB & #176 T - Yes! When we were discussing whether the gun could have fired a blank or not, I wondered if either Kaplan or (more likely?) Dembe swapped out the ammo. Dembe is loyal, but he's always felt that Red should have told Liz and when Red was shot it was Dembe who sent Liz to the creepy little apartment (and so on). If Dembe were seriously concerned that Red was off the rails, he was in a good position to have taken action and might be in league with Mr. K here.

I suppose also that Kate could have a tracking chip implanted or something so that a colleague could find her. She certainly expected that Reddington would do her in and had sufficient time to plan.

I can't handle another faked death in this show, but it's possible. She's clever enough to outwit Reddington more than once.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

TBL is taking on the illusion of Spy vs. Spy (Mad Magazine) with the various spies trying to out-wit and out-duel each other at various stages and tasks.
I will say this. Mr. Kaplan was one of the more unique and endearing characters in American TV. If she manages to recover and re-join the Reddington Roster her character will take on huge & powerful forces. Especially if the doctor required to bring her back to 100% is the same one she went into cahoots with Red already!

lara1 said...

loacoon and BBB: yes, the tracking chip or ammo switch theory! Those have crossed my mind as well, along with the "well I'm not going to make it easy for him" comment. although I think Kaplan was speaking rather generically there, you never know. She is one tough and smart cookie!

lara1 said...

LOL North by Northwest just started running on TV a few minutes ago . I will watch for the first mention of Mr. Kaplan!

lara1 said...

some new recurring characters, maybe on ballet theme"

Elise: 4.03-4.06

Odette: 4.04-4.08 (I understand 4.08 is fall finale)

lara1 said...

for those who are interested, put a quick comparison of North by Northwest themes and BL on the general theories page.

Tabasko said...

Tonight's discussion page is now available.

The Blacklist - "Miles McGrath #65" Episode 4.3 Discussion

lara1 said...

last minute observation on kirk in math. Kirk blames Liz for two things - I wonder if he, unknown to us, blames her for other stuff

1. In the plane, he blames Liz for not having Agnes - if you hadn't tried to escape, she would be with you
2. on the fishing boat, he says it is Liz's fault for the fisherman's condition because she should not have "interfered" - so Kirk shot him!

both of these blame situations are unjustified. So I wonder what other things Kirk blames Liz for, without real justification? hmmmm