The Blacklist - "Esteban" Episode 4.1 Discussion


After Liz is abducted by a man claiming to be her father, Red sets out to find her at any cost.
Meanwhile, the Task Force grapples with the shocking news that Liz is still alive.
The jury is still out on Hudson's whereabouts.

160 comments:

Chompstick said...

*** PLEASE READ ***
Welcome everyone! Here are just a few reminders since it's the beginning of a new season and most of us are a little rusty from being on hiatus. This is old fedora to most of you, but hopefully there are a lot of new addicts ready to join us tonight.

Please familiarize yourself with our website rules, which are basic but necessary. Whether you are new or have been here a while, plese read our FAQ Page.

The major points:

1. Be nice, be respectful. We are known to be THE friendly Blacklist forum, and we are the only site where you can count on it. Attacks on others will not be tolerated. We occasionally get a bad seed, but it is dealt with immediately.

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3. We are no longer a spoiler free site. We have a spoilers page where we can conglomerate all spoiler information, but spoilers - photos, videos, and information about upcoming episodes - can be posted and discussed anywhere. Please do not use spoiler tags.

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Thanks for taking the time to read and adhere to these simple rules.

I hope you enjoy the show!!!

Chompstick said...

Also, we created a new page over the summer - Get Linked-In to The Blacklist Articles, Interviews, Photos, and more. Now that the season has begun, we can go back to putting spoiler links on the Le Nouveau Spoiler Page, but other links for cast/crew interviews, photos, interesting articles, possibly uninteresting articles, and other stuff I can't think of can all go on the new page.

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Hi - glad to be back! I no longer have as much free time as I used to so I stayed away during the summer, but can't wait to reconnect with everyone and your theories after tonight's episode.

Lisa Dale Jones said...

Um. What's with the Captcha thingy? It kept adding new squares for me to click!

lara1 said...

Seat belt fastened - check! Ready for what I think is going to be a great ride.

Laocoon said...

Hi, all -

I'm ready! Heating pad on, knitting at the ready, reviewed the trailers/spoilers/blogs.

Let the show begin!

Chomps, thanks for all you do! I hope all is well with you and the Mr.

Charmed said...

Hi Lisa, I'll check with the Captcha thingy person.

Ines said...

And here we go again,

Coffee - Checked!
Snacks - Checked!
Excitement level - Not Checked!!!!!

Tabasko said...

Enjoy everyone!

Ines LOL.

Tatiana said...

IM SO EXCITED IM SO EXCITED IM SO EXCITED

#whatgetsmyheartpumpedihopeicansleeptonightifinallyhavelivetv!!!#youretheonlypeoplewhocouldunderstand!

Chompstick said...

Laocoon #6 - thanks for asking; he's one week post heart attack now and doing ok.

Charmed said...

Laocoon,
I hope the heating pad is just for tension in the neck and comfort. I'm sure if I could still knit, it would lay in my lap for the entirety of the show or I would make a huge mess. I'd probably catch the stitches in my nose ring! LOL
One for Iowa Watcher!

Lara congratulations you lucky girl. Again!

Honey West, I miss reall Cadbury Chocolate. Hershey's just doesn't have the same ring... Or taste!

I wish I had some Original Poppycock! Too bad.


Honey West said...

Well, you all have fun! I am getting ready to go radio silence here on the West Coast for the next 4 hours. I've managed to watch/listen to all of the Spader interviews except the BUILD one. Maybe I will while away the hours listening to that. But probably not. If I am on the computer I will be just too tempted to peek!

Anyway, around here it is almost time for JEOPARDY! I need to practice in case they call, after all! So dinner awaits and later on, the Cadbury bar for dessert at the appropriate time. I know what you mean, Charmed! I love to buy them in Canada or if I go to the UK. And I come home with a suitcase packed full of them! Customs must think I'm a small-time chocolate smuggler! Found some great chocolate in Sitka, Alaska, though.

Later on, my friends!

Ines said...

Chompstick #11 - Ohhh..So sorry that happen to you and Mr.Chompstick! Hope everything is good and he gets better soon.

Chompstick said...

Tatiana ... #HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Ines said...

Honey West #13 - Enjoy your Radio silence. With this new schedule, when you are watching I'm getting out to work, lol.

IT's STARTING!!!!

Charmed said...

Tatiana #10
Of course we understand your excitement over the live tv. We feel it too!

Chomps,
Tell Mr Chompstick hi and give him a big hug. After The Blacklist episode goes off, of course.

Ines said...

I miss BADASS RED so much!!

And I'm feeling pity for Mr.Kaplan!

Ohh the guy with the Nuclear stuff!

lara1 said...

WOW

Chompstick said...

Poor Aram.

Tatiana said...

Sound keeps going in and out! I have closed captioning on...

Looks like it's back now.

Well, Masha's become a momma bear.

Why doesn't Kirk's nosebleed hemmorage?

Poor Mr. Kaplan :-(

Wow. It's exactly what we thought. If Kirk's telling the truth - Katerina and Red were a number...

Ines said...

That was Manny from Frederick Barnes episode back in season 1. The guy that sold strontium 90. Love when they go to pick up this characters!

Are we going to watch an all episode of Mr.Kaplan being push to the side.

Ohh that story of Kirk, seems a lot like the theories we wrote here, but know they are probably to simple or straightforward. Witch leads-me not to believe it. Lol, As much as we are good with our theories, we are never 100% right and the producers always surprise us.

Just hearing her voice!!

"Elizabeth I will come from you" - that made Liz stop..couldn't tell in a good or bad way!

lara1 said...

Red to Kirk:

"She was never yours to raise." wow

I love that they delayed the first commercial break.

Ines said...

Chompstick #20 - The thing is that you know Aram is to good to actually be mad at Liz for long, and when I say long, it's more than 10 min.

Tatiana #21 - Hope it will work well the rest of the time!

Chompstick said...

First kidnapping of the season! I loved his look of resignation.

Chompstick said...

I don't know anything about guns, but that one being held on Tom is nasty looking.

Tatiana said...

Well they told us it would be explosive :-)

What do you all think so far?

lara1 said...

loving it! i think its very tightly scripted, directed, produced and of course, acted!

only wish it would be 2 hours! LOL!

Ines said...

Ahhh I miss HER!!!
"Is there anything that he doesn't know?" - Love her vocalizing all of your thoughts!


Chompstick #25 - At this point is just a business as usual thing for them!

lara1 said...

ok, I just want to know why Kirk is so determined to kill Tom! I wondered this when watching the spoilers. Maybe we will get a Tom reveal......

Ines said...

Did Mr Kaplan say Red has to change? before saying he actually has to leave Elizabeth alone (since she knows that changing is wishful thinking...)

Ahh Liz, I'm loving this side of you! "I'm dying" "Even better"

I really hope Mr. Kaplan saves the day!

Tatiana said...

Well the blood disorder was obvious although we questioned what kind of blood disorder it might be.

Tatiana said...

You're right, why is he hell bent on knocking off Tom?

You have to change. That's a loaded statement really. Is there more to it?

lara1 said...

Ones - yes, I think she said Red had to change. He has to let her go.

Chompstick said...

You tell him Tom! "I'm coming for them, for you. And not just me, an army. You hear me? An army is coming for you." *swoon*

Charmed said...

Swoon! Yep, me too, Chomps.

Tabasko said...

If they ever to a Task Force yearbook, Ressler will easily win "Most Kidnapped." There could be a picture with a hood over his head instead of a regular picture.

Chompstick said...

Quote du jour?
Red to Ressler: I appreciate your assistance, but I'm not interested in having an ethical debate with you about whether they have the right to consult with an attorney before I put a bullet in their head.

lara1 said...

Red is not messing around! nothing and no one is getting in his way

Love it

Ines said...

Hum...why this is giving me vibes again, of Kirk having double (triple) intentions to connect now with Liz. Bringing up that he is dying, and the fact that he is convince she is her daughter.

Mr.Kaplan to the Rescue!!

lara1 #30 and Tatiana #32 - To be fair, Red was also bend in getting rid of Tom..Maybe it just a thing of Liz father figures (or wanna be's) and Tom. LOL

Chomps #35 - The same! Collective swoon! And one has to love the put downs and reality checks Red gives Ressler!

Tatiana said...

Ok, so that was the set-up episode and S4E2 will be the explanation for "what happened" at fire house, right?

Chompstick said...

I'm uncomfortable with the baby storyline. Adults being kidnapped and shot at is one thing, but when a little baby is kidnapped repeatedly by terrifying people, and gun fights are occurring around her - I know it's just a tv show but it's crossing a line that I'm not comfortable with. It's taking the fun out of the show for me.

Ines said...

OMG!! They get Agnes...I relax..Then they don't anymore!

And why I'm thinking Mr.Kaplan is going to be injured from that acidente, she was not really stable while walking on that promo. The only thing holding me on that, is that we know by the spoiler pics, that she will still be in other locations during the episode..
What do you guys thing Red will do to Mr. Kaplan? I always though Red at the most will relieve Mr.Kaplan of his employment and in the best scenario keep her and forgive her, even if is not in his character. The other option running around my head, is that she will actually die protecting/saving Red/Liz/Agnes.

lara1 said...

couple of immediate thoughts:

according to Kirk, Red's "abduction" of Liz is like that of the Caretaker and his "daughter" - in that story you probably remember that the Caretaker took the little girl - from an abusive father -not that Kirk is saying that he (Kirk) was abusive, but it reminds me of that story, and that the father was abusive - full disclosure - this aligns with the theory that Liz's "father" was abusive

Kirk's story to Liz also reminded me almost word for word of what Red said to Liz about how her father "took her" from her mother, and in spite of all that, her mother followed him and wanted them to be a family - ok now my head is spinning!

reminds me of the fight in the fire memory and how some of us think that the "clues" in fire night point to someone more like Reddington and less like Kirk in that argument (Her name is Elizabeth!)

Father theories now screaming in my head. Red is looking at that baby very fondly.....but somehow I still think that there is a twist and its not that simple...

At least we now know that Kirk really is Constatin, Red called him that

Ooh Red was stinging in his interactions with Kaplan: "suddenly the cleaner thinks that she's a strategist" or something like that. overstepped her boundaries, which some of us thought (though for good reason)

Did anyone catch what Dembe said to Kaplan at the beginning - when she said to Dembe something like, surely he knows I did this for a good reason or something like that?n (I can't wait for on demand on saturday, LOL!)

I thought it was pretty intense and I did like it - a lot.


Colleen P. said...

Hello to Everyone! Show of hands - didn't the hour-long episode feel like ten minutes? Wish it was next Thursday already :)

Tatiana said...

Chomps - Same feeling here, re: baby being kidnapped. Not nice.

Mr. Kaplan, yep, it looks like her status with Red is very precarious.

Notice that Red refers to Kirk as Constantin?

Colleen P. said...

Sounded like Dembe said "I'm not on your side" in response to Mr. Kaplan. But my TV didn't have the best reception tonight.

lara1 said...

Tatiana # 41 - I think maybe. I think Kirk is taking her back to Russia (maybe). I don't think that is fire house but I think that we will learn stuff to help us put together what happened fire night

Chompstidk #42 - I hear you. They did say it would get darker, maybe that is part of what they meant. I think that Kirk's henchman (Mato, I think his name is) is a really nasty piece or work. No regard for human life whatsoever.

Ines#40 - Yes agree re Tom but Red would not harm him as he knows Liz loves him. It does make me still wonder if there is something in Tom's past the both men know (Red and Kirk) that is not exactly son in law material (LOL!)

Ines # 43 - I'm thinking was well our second option with Kaplan. I hope not that would be sad, but it would be a true and realistic twist to the tale.

Colleen P - yes the time just flew! but somehow I though they were sparing with the commercial breaks, which is good

Also - I thought Spader was at the top of his game in this episode.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

That's what Dembe said to Kate. I'm really starting to dislike the Kate Kaplan character - but I suspect the show-runners are trying to do this on purpose. She's got something up her sleeve - giving Sanchez their coordinates so he could ram their car and take back the baby!
Tonite's episode could easily have been called 'Baby Ping Pong'

Iowa Watcher said...

Hi, everyone! (LOL, Charmed!)

Yes, I'm glad TBL is back. No one here in my real world understands either, so I'm glad to be able to visit this great blog!

I'm still processing tonight's episode. I agree with the discomfort about the baby storyline. I would feel much better if Agnes were safely in a nursery and the action was taking place elsewhere.

Other than that, I thought it was worth the wait. We got a few tidbits, as mentioned. I'm still not sure what I think about Kirk. He strikes me as a sleezeball. He may think he's her father, but I don't think that he is.

I hope Mr. Kaplan makes it. The show wouldn't be the same without her.

DZ731 said...

OMG, that car crash at the end! That was a surprise. A lot happened in this episode, and not much happened at all. Except for Tom being free, Liz and Agnes are right back where they were at the beginning of the episode.

Things I loved:

Ressler loyally standing with Liz, no matter what she's done.

Aram being utterly and totally confused that Liz is alive but still supporting the Keen family in spite of feeling hurt.

Mr. Kaplan being the one to get Agnes back.

Aw, Red and Agnes together again. That baby was just as captivated by Red as he is with her.

What I wonder:

What did Red mean when he told Kirk, "she (Masha/Liz) was never yours to raise."

What overwhelming proof does Kirk have that Liz is his daughter?

lara1 - I too thought about the Caretaker, when Kirk said Red took her from him and her mother. It also made me think of Red telling Liz that her father took her.

I'm really looking forward to the second episode. What will Liz find out in the familial home?

Chompstick said...

Colleen P. #47
"I'm not on your side here, Kate."

lara1 said...

DZ731 - Yep! to all your points...!

lara1 said...

St. George and the Dragon - does anyone recall, does St George slay the dragon by beheading? Just maybe drawing a parallel to Red saving Liz here (though she is hopefully not going to end up in a lake)

Thanks to those of you who clarified what Dembe said to Kate at the beginning of the episode. Sounds like he definitely did not approve of what she did. Well it is all quite a mess now isn't it? A huge mess. Not that Kaplan intended it. But its still a mess.

Tatiana said...

Thoughts in no particular order:

* Last scene/car crash: reminded me of the very first episode when Liz is in the car with Beth and they get t-boned, then Beth is kidnapped;

* What if Red and Katerina were married (hush, they cannot tell anyone because their secret double triple counter intelligence spies) but Katerina became pregnant by Constantin? Just a thought.

* crazy theory that NBC wouldn't let the producers go with: what is that finale? Either the world is going to be taken over by some underground communist party or Red and Constantin were actually lovers. I'm pretty sure NBC would have something to say about either scenario.

* Oh my, I never thought for a moment that Kaplan was still trying to set things up to get Liz and Agnes away from Red, but that makes sense. She's very adamant that she believes she's right, ergo her comment to Dembe and his response, I'm not on your side here, Kate;

* Tom is getting more and more likeable...

Ines said...

I think was a pretty good episode.

In a nutshell (since I have to try to catch a couples hours of sleep):
-Kirk story seems to much vanilla...Red having a affair with KR, then she getting pregnant and doubting who is the father..looks to "clean" and simple.
-I'm liking Liz as a more independent person, and Mama Bear Liz kicks ass!
-James Spade was on point as usual, is expressions when hearing Liz voice and when he sees the plane fly, you can actual feel the anguish.
- The all Mr.Kaplan issue in actually breaking my heart! Snif*
- There was not much in terms of the task force, minus Ressler. And have to say I got intrigued, by the time they took in focusing or that women that got released from the prison in the last scenes. It will not be above Red to have manipulated all the situation (as he seems to know how always what Agent Ressler will do), to get some people of interest release or in his side..
- Aram..being the cinnamon roll we know and love. Always doing his totally out of the blue questions in critical situations.
- Finally, I always love when someone from Red network/connects makes an reappearance. Now we know that Manny is Red's Cuba guy!

Tatiana #41 - Pretty much! It does seem that, maybe Liz will remember, have more flashbacks when she is in the house...although if this is the fire house, and the house consequently burn, I can't see them building it up exactly the same..So maybe this is a different house of the one of the fire, but still a house that at some point Liz stayed.

Chomps #42 - Agree. It was a tad to much. In this case, they could easily had left the baby off cameras.

lara1 #44 - Nice points. Yes I think the truth is already out there in a way, it was just manipulated to fit the version that both men wanted to transmit. (or maybe not and I will get totally surprise). Good catch on the Constantin, I'm rusty and did not remember well that reference.
I actually felt it was to much bashing on Mr.Kaplan, I lost track of how many looks and jabs they send her way. It had been more effective, or a better show of disdain if Red just had say he couldn't trust her now..and for her not to come along.. It was painful to watch Mr.Kaplan taking it all.

lara1 #48 - Ya, but I will miss her. Like Dembe, Mr.Kaplan won the hearts of the blacklist viewers and start getting more and more scenes. I can only imagine her leaving by dying..

Colleen P. - A common affliction when watching The blacklist episodes, losing the notion of time, and getting surprised/sad when is over.

Iowa Watcher #50 - Welcome back!

I'm sorry if some of the comments are not coherent, lol, I plead exhaustion.

lara1 said...

Ines # 56 - Nice point about Kirk and his "vanilla" story. makes me a bit suspicious now. Is this his "story" for Liz. Or what really happened. Not sure. Seems too matter of fact about it, but I guess we will see!

I'm also now wondering whether, when Liz gets "home" with Kirk and the house spurs some memories, how her "memory erase/alteration" will play into that (if at all). Red erased or altered the various memories she had of the fire, but some of us have speculated that's not all that was erased. So if/when she "remembers" things from her childhood, will that even be reliable? unless backed up by other, tangible things. I think maybe Red did not want her to remember anything about her childhood for a reason. What that reason is, I don't know. But that's just my own thoughts on it....

On Kaplan, I feel for her but I don't think it's too much how Red treats her. He is really, really hurt, angry and desperate all at the same time . The episode picks up right after the finale of last season literally minutes later. Red's thermostat is now on "overheated" and he's lashng out at every one is a very real way. Interesting that he is saying what he really means to everyone (eg Ressler) and not cloaking it in stories, humor, or cryptic statements. He's just really "on fire".....he is totally an utterly seething and frustrated at the same time. Just my take on it.

Tatiana said...

Lara - I think you're spot on with Red's emotional disposition. He was utterly humorless. His world has completely fallen apart. The only reliable is Dembe.
Elizabeth, Agnes, Kate, they are all gone and his foundation is rocked to the core.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Wouldn't it be something if Dembe was in on it with Kaplan???

Red's World meet Falling Apart!

eastcoast said...

Hey everyone! Good to see everyone here!


My take is...

Great episode, except for all the violence towards the baby! (agree with Chomps)

I wondered if the Manny the Cuba guy from before would be back and he was, that was great.

I would say Tom has really showed he has changed! Great acting on his part tonight as usuall.
He truly looked like a father in anguish!

Everyone did a great job!
The way Liz looked standing behind that mirror is her mind was really churning if Red was really her father.
I mean really, there he was to rescue her and asking if she was ok. Again! And I thought she looked a bit relieved that he was aware of the situation and was going to help her.

Despite anything she may not have agreed with about him, he wouldn't put her in danger like this man did as she was pointing out to Kirk and Red wouldn't hurt Tom. And I think she would have to be thinking about Red telling her she was a target after her name got out.

cant remember who brought the DNA up but I remember when Solomon took that swab and DNA crossed my mind and then I forgot about it. I wonder if that was what was in that file he looked at when he got off that plane or was it about who Tom was?

As far as Tom, I dont think it is something he has done, but who he is. Maybe Kirk knows he is Hargraves son too.
Maybe its a bone they really dont want dug up!


BBB,# about kaplan...
I didn't catch kaplan doing that and i never took my eyes off the screen?
what did i miss?
I just felt sorry for her. Everyone loves Mr. Kaplain! She is a part of the show just as much as Dembe to me, it would really be weird without her on there.
She really believes she was doing the right thing. She was trying to reason with him, But I do not think Red has any plans to let her go!

All that stuff on can and cant forgive, this would be a good time for TPTB to do that with Red, because he might be looking for some himself one day. Not to mention what Liz would think and how it would make her feel if he hurt Kaplan.

And now as far as the fire night went, I am keeping the dialog but throwing out the window who said what. I think the words are right just not who said them.
We know Red was there and probably Dom.

So now I wonder a few things. Did KIrk take her from her mom like Red said and KR came for her or were they snatching her back and forth as it happens between parents sometimes? Were Red and Dom trying to get her back and something went wrong as Dom indicated or Was she with Red and KR and Kirk showed up?

We know there was fighting, people looking for the fulcrum, someone went out a window, someone got shot and someone got her out of the fire that she said was her "real father" and Red agreed. So I am waiting to see if Kirk says that she shot him and who He says took her out of the fire.

Kirk calls her Masha which we heard on fire night and Red is the one who calls her Elizabeth/Lizzy which were both used fire night.

Ok, this is much longer than I thought, but this is what was going around in my brain tonight...

eastcoast said...

BBB, #59, It had crossed my mind, but when he looked at her and said he wasn't on her side I dismissed it. I do remember him telling her she had a right to know.

lara1 said...

So here is something to ponder:

While there were not any obvious "reveals" in this episode (What was said I think was half expected and who knows if it is true), thinking back on the confrontation with kirk and Red, I think it was revealing in its own way:

1. One of the first things that Red says to Kirk is "Constantin, what do you want?". This says a couple of things to me. First, of course, Red knew all along that Kirk was really Constantin. Second, that Red isn't buying what Kirk is selling, or knows flat out that Kirk's actions are some kind of manipulation or pay back for something in the past. This makes me think that Red knows the Kirk father stuff is not true. (my opinion)

2. The next thing Red says is that Kirk can have whatever he wants. Red is willing to do and give anything and everything he has - ANYTHING - to get Liz back from Kirk. this again tells me that Red isn't buying Kirk's story and that somehow - somehow - Red not only loves Liz very deeply but still fears for Liz in Kirk's hands

3. the comment by Red that Liz wasn't Kirk's to raise. Hmmm. But Red could have just meant that Kirk was not a suitable father or did not deserve to raise Liz as her father (again, shades of the Caretaker story, in reverse of what Kirk said). Something very substantial went down between these two in the past

4. When Kirk says to Red, unlike you, I would never hurt my own daughter, Red flinches but does not dispute it. It does make me wonder whether that is a play on words - that only the two men know - If Liz is Red's daughter (I don't know but that statement takes on a weird twist/double meaning if Kirk is referring to Red hurting Liz as his (Red's) daughter (in some way in the past). Pure speculation but it got me thinking. This series has done plays on meanings/sentences before. I'm not saying Liz is Red's daughter only that's its intriguing to read the line in that way as a double meaning. Either way its a bit disconcerting....

More musing tomorrow no doubt. Of course I shall have to re-watch to pick up any nuances in the dialog on royalty, cards, magic, music, drowning, swimming, water and of course that piano! (LOL!!!)

Big Bad Bazzer - Yeah you know I thought that too. But now I think after Dembe's response to Kaplan, that he wasn't in on it. one never knows though

lara1 said...

Just to clarify my #1 in post 62 - in the last sentence I should have been clearer "Red knows the Kirk father stuff is not true>>" - I mean the in the wider sense, i.e. Red knows (or rather thinks) that Kirk does not have "fatherly" motives (whether or not he is Liz's father)

eastcoast # 60 - nice to hear from you. I like your observations. Tom - a bone they don't want to dig up LOL. but well said, I agree - good way to summarize that!

I'm with you on fire night. Some very serious stuff went down but we don't know who was doing or saying what.

Kaplan - I hear you on this. She wants to just put things right between her and Red but right now Red is too overheated to talk to about it. She needs to wait for him to cool down, he is not going to listen to any reason right now, in my opinion. Its his way or the highway and don't get in his way or try to distract him with anything else....he's a human bulldozer now!

I brought up the DNA the other day and I'm sure others probably mentioned it too. Its going to be very interesting in episode 2.

I think some bombshells will drop in episode 2 - but as always - can we trust what we hear, what Kirk says and even, Liz's own memories?

still I can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!

lara1 said...

There is a very wild promo released by global Tv for next week. i can't get hold of it but viewed it on another website where I can't get it to copy over.

Ines, are you able to find it and get the link for us? you are so good at that stuff.

I'll let everyone view if for themselves - it is possible shocking, but I do offer this one (not shocking) detail: Liz is holding what appears to be the drawing from katarina's trunk at Dom's house. HUH? How did Kirk get that? also that drawing does not look like the drawings in fire house. Something not right - or was that drawing by the second girl in the fire house closet after all?!

I think it will be intense!

Honey West said...

I need to re-watch. But was it just me or did that clip that was played on Fallon and Today completely missing? I wonder if it's from episode 2 or else is a deleted scene that will show up on the DVDs next year.

The car crash was a surprise, although it shouldn't have been since we'd seen a wrecked car in some of the photos, or maybe that was someone describing something they saw being filmed? Anyway, it made sense to have Mato show up and grab Agnes again because he is the Blacklister next week.

Was that the fire house? They never did say it had burned to the ground, so maybe it still exists and was rebuilt. I guess we'll find out next week.

Well I guess we know for sure that Red knew Kirk's real identity all along. Kirk's explanation to Liz was just a little too pat. And pretty much what we thought had happened a long time ago. "She was never yours to raise." "I should have raised you myself." Hmmmmm.

I hope Mr. Kaplan doesn't die saving Liz and Agnes and redeeming herself. That would be just too formulaic.

More later after a rewatch. Lots to digest.

Honey West said...

Lara1 #64 what if Red hasn't been the only one who's paid visits to Dom over the years? We don't know if Kirk has been by there, too. After all, he would have been Dom's son in law.

Ines said...

lara1 #64 - Is this what you where looking for?

The promos:
NBC promo
Global Tv promo

Tatiana #55 - Nice thoughts! good catch on the Beth being kidnapped parallel.

lara1 #57 #64- Ohh the house will certainly spur some memory, I just wonder like you if they can be trusted..How does a house that burned, now stands up again and with all the memorabilia as if they just moved and left everything behind? Or it was another house that burned, and Liz just projected some of her own memories, or there is something really wrong here. The global promo seems to focus heavily on the house. They show some drawings, the hallway..like she is having some kinds of flashbacks! There is this scene: Screencap from Global Tvpromo; that gives evidence to some kind of recreation happening, or at least manipulation of some kind..

That's a really good point about Red's state of mind. It was literally just a few hours ago for Red, he is basically in a middle of a rollercoaster of emotions and betrayal..

Big Bad Bazzer #59 (love your name by the way) - I did wonder that in the end of last season, but after that exchange between Dembe and Mr.Kaplan I am now in the team "he didn't know""

Eastcoat #60 - Nice to see you back also! Ohh Totally agree with Liz state of mind, I think in the end if she has to chose between evils, she will always picks Red, the evil she knows, and the one that will never willingly put Agnes in danger, or even Tom by association.. The promos seem to focus heavily in two things, Liz and the house and Red and Mr.Kaplan, so we will see both things coming full circle, I think! I like your though about maybe making Mr.Kaplan a example of how Red can change...although the promos are not giving me much hope on that front..

That are really very good questions about Kirk/Liz/Red, and I have to think a bit about it...right now I'm still wondering what really Red mean with the "she was never yours to raise."

lara1 #62 - You know I'm starting to believe that neither of them are actually the fathers. They both probably had some kind of relationship with KR (independently of it's nature), which made them believe that they had some clame on Liz/Masha that the other didn't.
Ohh your 4th point could also be Kirk actually pointing out that Red couldn't protect his own daughter, the bubble girl/ballerina girl.

Finally, about the promos, in the NBC one you see Liz actually trying to crash the plane, this will probably happen in the beginning of the episode, and somewhere on the fight, the pilot?? will get shot (notice the blood in the windshield). But since she is then in the house, I will think she did not succeed in escape. The house is just confusing right know..although I'm curious to know who was that women speaking to Liz, and that little girl? Is Liz projecting again? seeing herself as a child? And to whom is Liz saying "You may be telling the truth"?
Also there is a scene of Dembe and Tom trying to catch Mato, and then him being hit by a car...I'm choosing to think that Red/Mr.Kaplan is driving that car.

More stuff later

Ines said...

Here is the missing interview:

James’s AOL Build interview

Patter said...

BBB "She's got something up her sleeve - giving Sanchez their coordinates so he could ram their car and take back the baby!"

I didn't see that part! Will have to do a rewatch this weekend. I did find it kind of uncomfortable the way Kaplan opened her eyes when he grabbed Agnes from the car. I couldn't tell if she knew and was processing what she did knowing she could have killed one of them and Agnes or if she literally just came to and unable to react to grab Agnes.

Tom with the rock takedown. He's so resourceful.

One more thing. Did anyone have trouble seeing subtitles? I tried 2 different OTA NBC channels and neither screen would display all the subtitles. I could only see them if was double row of subtitles. Could be a screen setting on my tv?

Can't wait til next week!

CngRed said...

Apologies if this comes as a double-post.


Just to add some levity to a tense episode... Wouldn't it have been better for Liz, rather than telling KirConstantine "Don't call me Masha", to exasperatedly cry out

"MASHA MASHA MASHA!!!"


Also, seeing as Red/Dembe/Mr.Kaplan/Tom et al cannot seem to rescue Liz/Agnes for any significant stretch of time, I think it's necessary to bring in the big guns. Get GEORGE GLASS down there, STAT!!!!

Marie said...

#67 Ines

Thanks for posting that Global TV link. Very informative.

#37 Tabasko-
Ressler in year book, the "Most Kidnapped". LOL
Tom would be labeled the best grave digger.

Best line of the night:
Red to Esteban: "How would you feel about a blind date?"

Honey West said...

I haven't looked at the global promos yet, but I have a bad feeling about Kate next week. Obviously she was conscious enough to see and "interact" with Mato. Otherwise they might not know right away who took Agnes. She looked a little wobbly in the preview where Red said he couldn't trust her. I think that she will either succumb to car crash injuries or else take her own life. I think Red will be spared having to "do something" about Kate. But it will haunt him.

So if Kirk just wants Liz for his medical condition, as we might think, why go to the trouble to show her that house? Why keep what might be "her room" set up like that? Such elaborate staging for a simple kidnapping. Unless his goal is to revive her memories of her childhood, her family, etc. it will be interesting to see what that's all about.

Tabasko, "most likely to be kidnapped". LOL!! So true!

More later, have to go swimming.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

I called Konstantine's thug "Sanchez" cuz I couldn't find his actual name - no slight intended!
As for Dembe being in cahoots with Mr. Kaplan - there's no direct evidence but lots of TBL stuff happens off-screen, so this one is no exception. The way Sanchez told Kate to "zip her lip" indicates Kate was in on a baby takeaway - for the 2nd time.
Once Red wakes up in the car and processes (that's what he does best) the situation I wonder how much rope he'll have left with Kleaner Kaplan (love how he talked about people in certain roles taking on other responsibilities)
As for Dembe being in on it. No direct evidence. Just speculation. He was unable to subdue Sanchez = that either makes Sanchez a Cuban superman and/or Dembe a weakling. We'll just have to wait.
They had the baby but let Liz fly away. Now they got nothing! Talk about coming up empty after all that scenery chewing!

Well, one positive thing. We got the glorious Deirdre Lovejoy back this season - and her wonderful southern accent. I really do like her. Wouldn't mind the show-runners loosening up her leash and letting her into the field - maybe with Agent Navabi! (wouldn't they be a great pairing?)

lara1 said...

Hello everyone - just a quick note the the link i posted yesterday with the interview is now working. :)


(Under the Interviews tab)

lara1 said...

Ines #68 - sorry didn't see that before I did my #74 posting. Thanks for reposting the interview, more efficiently than I! The link wasn't working yesterday but it is today.

# 67 - yes that's the spoiler for episode 2 I mentioned - thanks!

Hope you managed to get some sleep last nigh!!

lara1 said...

BBB #73 - I like your comment/theory about Kaplan (well maybe not "like" because I don't want it to be true!). It would be a wild twist to the story. Just speculation on my part but what if Kaplan had been turned against Red a while ago (whether or not for something he really did - i.e. like Berlin storyline) and this is now all just playing out? Well, maybe not likely based on what we know, but then again we don't know much about Kaplan, either.

We didn't see how Kaplan managed to get the baby without hurting Agnes. I don't think Kaplan had a weapon. Maybe Red is right after all in not trusting her and not giving her a role in the rescue. What we may see is that he is angry at her and hurt , hence excluding her, but what if he is genuinely wary of her motives? And the Agnes kidnap storyline is running parallel to the Liz kidnap storyline for some reason which is clicking away at the back of my mind. Why not just take the both of them together? Maybe part of Kirk's mind games with Liz, but we don't know. But I do think that Red will figure it out whatever it is....

This may tie in with my next comment:

Ines #67 - I am on the same page as you re the "home" Liz is taken to. We don't get to see much in the promos or the photos but it seems kind of perfect to me, for something hanging around for 30 years. I think that at least part of the whole thing is a fabrication. Also I don't think Kirk got that drawing from Dom. WE don't know if he even knows where Dom is or that Dom has it. It also looks too pristine and I think Dom's was a bit turned on the edges. Anyway going off into spoiler country a bit here, I'll circle back to say, suppose this storyline has a totally wild twist like the Berlin storyline? Who was the girl, who was which daughter, Red blamed in that story arc (again?) for something he didn't do over years and years. Kaplan being in on the abduction would possibly be part of this twist and storyline. Wild theory yes but anything is possible! (It would be a huge double blow to Red though so I'm not saying I like it or want it, but I think its possible. And she did got to Liz after Agnes with her "death" plot. Maybe we are all assuming different reasons for Kaplan's tears in the mobile ICU). And we still don't really know Kirk's motives. Is he really the hurt father or something else very complex going on here?

So Liz may get answers next episode but not sure we can trust them. I'm not so sure the series would give us so many answers, so quickly, without seeds of doubt (more questions!).

lara1 said...

Honey West #65 and 66. No, you are right. I didn't realize that. the clip with the "sample" was not part of the episode. Maybe its coming next week? Good point about Dom/Kirk. I thought maybe Kirk was one of "the pack" that Dom crawled away from, but maybe not. But I still think part of the childhood Liz house is fabrication. The question, as I think you pointed out in a later post is, why all of this?

The house next week = pondering whether or not it is fire house. I always perceived fire house to be where Liz's "father" took her when he abducted her, i.e. not her childhood home in Russia. For some reason, I got the sense that Kirk is taking her to her "real" childhood home, in Russia. But I could be wrong. Plus, I thought he fled the country? Can't remember if he was chased out or chose to leave. If its the latter, he should not have a probllem in going back. Its' a long trip though! And Liz may or may not have been in only one house after her father "took" her. But would Kirk know where she was?

Hmmm next week we will know more, I guess we'll see more of the house and start to put together whether or not it lines up with how the house looks in Liz's memory - if either thing can be trusted!

Ines #67 - you know, that thought crossed my mind too when I was watching last night. Neither Kirk nor Red are the father but both may think they have claims.

Tatiana - liked your thoughts,, especially the crash like that of the first episode of the first series.

Need to watch again but one thing I thought this morning was about the whole "mirror" thing agin. Mirror front and center, after that curious scene in Cape May. Interesting. (and very effective!)

Tatiana said...

* In the Global preview, Red takes Kate out to the woods, he's carrying a gun and says to her, "I can't trust you. Ever." Pretty sure Kate sealed her fate.

* Did anyone see the woman at the open doorway of the childhood house? She says, "Hello Elizabeth". She's wearing a light blue, Jackie Kennedy style suit. It appears she is holding glasses in her left hand. She appears like she is Elizabeth's tutor or nanny, not her mother. I cannot make out her face, but she looks like the teacher in "Lady Ambrosia". Any new actresses appearing in Episode 2?

* The interview with James Spader "So Kirk says he's Liz's father", Spader, "He's full of Sh!t!" Made me laugh out loud!

* As others quoted, James said, when one question is answered, two more appear.

* I really find myself emotionally disturbed by Kate's fate :-( !!!

* Liz is like a new person this season. Even her face seems different, but that may be because she's no longer pregnant. She's portraying Liz as harder and more determined, which is good, because Liz is one mad, bad, momma bear! (I kind of like this Liz lol)

* Tom is really looking good these days. So what makes him so bad?

lara1 said...

Tatiana #78 - yeah, strange who that woman at the house could be. And she is calling her Elizabeth, not Masha.And is she really there or is Liz remembering/imagining her?

Re Kate - yes that scene does not look good. The question is, does Red found out anything more, that leads to his decision, and/or is he interrupted by something or by something Kate says to him.

Yes I like this new/old Liz! very very good.

Anyone have thoughts on who in the promo Liz is talking to when she says something like, I think you are/were telling the truth? It could be Kirk but the hair looks longer and darker. The jacket looks the color of what Kate is wearing in that scene with Red in the woods in the promo but that could just be the lighting or whatever. If that scene occurs after the plane crash though Liz could only be talking to Kirk- right?
But - I don't think Liz would say that to Kirk that scene occurs early on before they get to "the house". Unless its a red herring and she's talking about something other than "the" truth.

Maybe we will get some more clues if more promos come out. Couldn't see anything in the still photos.

Honey West said...

Hmmmm, lara1 and Tatiana, I finally looked at the globaltv promo. It's not clear whether that woman is in the present or the past, since they were cutting back and forth between Liz now and Liz then. I wonder if it was a young Kate Kaplan, since she knew Liz as a child. Liz didn't recognize her years later, but maybe she only played a part in Liz's life up to when her memories were erased. So any recollection of Kaplan would have been erased, too, much like her early memories of Red and probably everything else.

I suspect Kirk is trying to jog her memories. By bringing her to the home of her childhood, I think he is attempting to do that. Why, is the big question. But I think her memories are what he is after.

lara1 said...

Honey West # 80 - good observations. Yes it could be Kate who does call her "Elizabeth". And I think you are on to something with Kirk wanting Liz to remember....what is the question, and why.

So, if Kate was the one at the house that again raises the question of her relationship to Liz and to Red. We know she knew Liz as a child but was she caring for her more or less full time - and why (i.e. what is the connection) questions, questions - well they did promise us those! LOL

Honey West said...

lara1 #76, when Kaplan told the woman (Romina? was that her name?) that was not her baby, she pointed a gun at her. I am guessing that she didn't shoot her because the woman appears next week, and somehow Kate got Agnes back. But that begs the question - did she tie her up or did she let her go or did she escape? Did we not see what happened because they wanted to leave that question open or simply because there's never enough time in the 42 minutes they have to tell the story to show every little detail?

lara1 said...

Honey West # 82 - thanks for that! LOL how did I not see that?! I definitely need to watch again!

Eastcoast said...



Tatiana, #78,
What interview was that?


And i want to weigh in on my personal thoughts to the reactions to her friends at work finding out Liz is alive because it really bothered me. I am really disappointed. We are all different, but I don't think TPTB got that one right. At least not the way I see it.

How many of us have lost someone we really cared about and would give anything to see them alive again? I know I have. Let alone someone who had been going through all that hell.
Gave me the impression not everyone is as good of a friend as she thought.

I got the impression from Samar she would rather her be dead instead of Understanding and having her friend back and knowing the baby would have her mother. She lost points with me big time. Aram needs to pull it together too. Ressler and Cooper were the only ones who were doing what they should.

It isn't like she could tell Any of them, they all talk too much. When Samar ran the search to find Red that time, she told Aram and he told Ressler and she was captured.

Such a huge turn off not just to me but others too.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

A team in a super-drama needs incredible tension within the team in order to produce great drama. Otherwise you just have head-nodders.

The show-runners decided to break off Samar and Aram from the hunt for Elizabeth in order to create tension = have Lennix & Dressler form one unit within the org. and Samar/Aram another. Lennix is also letting in Deirdre Lovejoy in on the fun - much more than usual.

Sorry for inter-changing actor names with characters - haven't got the entire list down pat - YET . . .

lara1 said...

eastcoast #84 - that's the interview I posted yesterday to the interviews page that I attended. Ines kindly reposted it today, if you scroll up on this page you will see it #68 under Esteban).

lara1 said...

east coast #84 and BBB#85 - I think you both make valid points. I think the producers decided to focus on the drama and "betrayal" aspect of it, also possibly intending to link it back to the theme of Red's Cape May speech, even - why would you do that to those you love? But I also think that the Task Force got very little screen time, so maybe the producers chose the betrayal/tension aspect of it rather than anything else. Not saying it was necessarily the right approach but they had to pack a lot into that episode. Maybe we will see more in the next one. But, yes, some "real" reaction (oh my God, she is alive) would have been good and maybe more "real"..

with Samar, I'm thinking there is something up with her, something ticking inside. It's not the first time she has spoken of consequences, she's done that before, I most remember her lines to Ressler after liz shot the attorney general - Samar's view was that Liz had to face the music (no pun intended!) for her actions. Also, in helping Liz ,Samar got fired and she gave up her brother to Red because that was a key to exonerating Liz. I think her relationship with her brother was unfortunately finished at that point, but still, she did give him up to Red.

So I'm inclined to think that there is something in Samar's past ticking away where she thinks Liz should be held more accountable for her actions, whatever they may be and however misguided Liz may have been. I'm not saying that Samar is right, just trying to understand her reaction. Just some ideas.

lara1 said...

So I had another look at the promos and photos and I don't think the house Kirk takes Liz to is in Russia. The photos of Ressler (if that is the same house) don't show Russian police cars when he greets Liz.

I guess Liz's "father" took her from Russia when Liz was an infant. For some reason I always had the impression that she hadn't been at fire house very long but now I don't think that was the case. Being out of Russia as an infant would also explain how Kate knew Liz as an infant - otherwise Kate would have had to have been in Russia too, and I don't think that was the case - but we don't really know any of this for sure. Kirk could also be reconstructing a lot locally - whether its meant to be fire house or another house - just to get Liz to remember - something. We've had so many fake and duplicate things in this series - even a fake hospital - that its very possible.....

Anyway just some more random musings.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Obviously screen time is a precious commodity; especially when you have a monster lead actor like Spader. The team certainly suffered as they just gave them some random lines - and set the table for Navabi to perhaps fly solo w/ Red in future eps.

Needed time to get the blacklister Esteban in (the scenes with him and the woman, popping his eyeballs out, etc. were eery)

Pannabaker, Konstantine, Liz (obviously) and surprisingly the star of the night immo (besides Red) was Mato, who dismantled Dembe with apparent ease and had lots of scenes w/ baby.

Also, a lot of time goo-gawing baby!

Harold, Ressler, Amar & Navabi will no doubt have episodes designed around them in the near future.

Also, inexplainable how Mato could drive his vehicle full speed into Red's car and not worry about whether baby was killed. He didn't care one bit if Kaplan, Red or Dembe were killed (they obviously all survive) but the premise of the scene was somewhat lost on me.

lara1 said...

BBB #89 - I did think that too about the car crash. I thought maybe they intended to draw a parallel with the T-bone car crash to get the child in the pilot of the series; or that was really the only way Mato could be sure to keep them from getting away. The thing that was perhaps a bit stranger to me was how Mato threatened the baby (with a knife maybe) when Liz was trying to escape, and also when Tom was trying to get the attention of the police. Unless Mato is just totally off the charts out of control crazy. or, maybe now that Kirk has Liz he doesn't really care so much about Agnes - only as a way to keep Liz appeased. I still don't understand why Liz and Agnes weren't taken together.

I feel like there is a puzzle piece we are missing perhaps.

Honey West said...

Good points, lara1 #87. I think the thing that is the hardest to remember is that this is all happening immediately after the discovery that Liz is alive. Red is doing amazingly well considering all that has just happened to him. Shows he works well under immense pressure. The fact that he hasn't just shot Kate right away shows great restraint on his part because he truly doesn't know what to do with her. He keeps her close by, probably in case there is more to what she did than he's discovered just yet, but he pointedly cuts her out of the action, assigning others to do the jobs that she would normally do. In spite of this, Kate is the one who temporarily rescues Agnes. That's got to win her a few points, maybe. On the other hand, Red just hasn't had time to deal with her yet, either. Kate could have run, but she didn't. Her tears during Agnes' birth were because she knew at that moment that she would be crossing a line from which there was no turning back, she knew what it would do to Red, and she knew what would happen if he discovered the truth. She made her peace with that back at that moment. I would hate to be Dr. Nik at the moment when Red comes for him.

So the team is still in the throes of discovery of the whole thing with Liz. Give them some time to think about it. This was an initial reaction. I think Aram is more hurt that it seems he wasn't trusted enough to be told. But given his habit of blurting out the wrong things at the wrong times here and there, well... Of course he may not think of it that way. And I agree, there is something in Samar's past that we haven't seen yet. And it may be playing a role here. Plus I think she gave up the most to exonerate Liz.

Honey West said...

lara1 #90, I wonder that about Liz and Agnes, too. But a thought I had was that maybe it is important that they not be moved together. That way if something happened, they wouldn't be rescued, caught or killed together. One is insurance for the other being lost.

Big Bad Bazzer said...

Yes, Lara there's definitely something up with Samar. I suspect they're setting the table for her to work directly with Team Red for a few eps anyways (and especially if Kaplan is indisposed)

Also, the team didn't get much screen time because the show just has too many actors to give everyone their 'time'.

Yesterday, Konstantine needed time, Pannabaker was inserted into the fray, Esteban, David Zayas and Mato needed action - and they spent a bit of extra time goo-gawing the baby!

Only thing that didn't ring true is Mato drilling Red's vehicle with his own at fairly high speeds. How did he know the baby would survive? He obviously didn't care if Red, Dembe or Kaplan were killed but that's kinda weak sauce discerning that baby survives!

lara1 said...

Honey West - I watched the global Tv promo again tonight. That woman the house, if she's a memory, does remind me a lot of Kate Kaplan - its certainly her dress style - Kate is always in a skirt suit or similar, conservatively tailored. Her voice sounds like her too! Good catch on that - I guess we'll see next week.

Tatiana said...

Lara - the woman looks like Kaplan, and check out her suit: it's the same suit Kaplan was wearing in Estaban in the first half.

lara1 said...

Tatiana - yes!, interesting isn't it? Maybe we'll also get some background on Kaplan next episode. Its a good place to weave it into the story and counterpoint it with her scene with Red where he says he can't trust her, ever.

I can't wait. I think episode 2 is going to be a real page turner (if it had pages, LOL!). Even if we can't trust some of the info, I think its going to be really interesting - and maybe full of those little details we love to focus on and pick apart, LOL!!

Eastcoast said...




BBB, #93,
I agree that the car crash was a bit much, he didn't even seam to be dizzy or anything? He just walks over smiling to get the baby. I know its Hollywood but that was a big impact.
It was odd to see Dembe overtaken by one guy after the beating he took from Solomon.

But I always tell myself " its in the script " about everything.

Lara1 , #86,
it was a Gun he pointed at the baby.


Did anyone else catch that Red told Esteban he had been protecting himself for 30 years?
Maybe he was rounding it up or thats how long he's been in the spy business.


A little strange that Kirk didnt call her his daughter to the people with him, he said the girl and baby.

That whole story Kirk gave Liz was odd. They came home one day and she was gone? Yet she knows there was a fire that changed her life.
I wonder what he will about the fire, her mother and the burn she says her father gave her?


Another thing about Kaplan is he might know it would hurt Liz and she would blame herself if he kills her.

Tatiana,#78,
That woman in the promo reminded me of Kaplan too, especially the way she was dressed.

I do realize the betrayal theme, but Liz exposed herself to a virus that had no cure to comfort her.

Samar has always had a kind of cold side to her. I take into account she plays a trained Mossad agent, an assassin who lacks a conscience at times. I think Samars' brother was dead either way.
I do think part of what is bugging her is Ressler. I think she cares about him a little and seeing him go after Liz bugs her just a bit.

Wondering what's going to happen to Ressler when he gets back. I think Red knew what he was going to do.
I have to admit Panabaker cracked me up!

Honey West said...

Yes, eastcoast #97, I did catch the 30 years comment. I immediately did some math to get 1986. So basically he's been protecting himself since Liz was born.

I also think if Red kills Kate that Liz wouldn't forgive him. But would that be enough to stop him? In the global tv promo she is heard telling someone that she betrayed Raymond and he doesn't know what to do with her. I wonder if she's saying that to Liz? Dembe would be the only other person she would be likely to say that to.

lara1 said...

eastcoast #97 - "A little strange that Kirk didnt call her his daughter to the people with him, he said the girl and baby".

I thought that too. I think they used a similar phrase when Stadler was giving Mato his orders about Agnes and Tom back in the Season 3 finale, but I put it down to him just giving orders. But now Kirk says the same. Maybe a clue he is not really her father? Seems like he is kind of ordering just another capture or hit, instead of being emotionally involved in it as he claims to be. I think he is pretty cold anyway, like he is going through the motions of emotion. Seems to me maybe he can't relate on that level otherwise why is he causing Liz all this stress when he's trying to get her on his side. Unless he just doesn't care and just wants to get her to "the house" to get her to remember.

Nice catch on the 30 years! I sort of heard that but it did not register. Hoping to rematch tonight when I'm expecting it to become available On Demand here.

lara1 said...

Honey West # 98 and eastcoast - I tend to think also that Liz's reaction might spare Kaplan from Red. But I wonder if he's really thinking about that, and we also don't know what his reaction to Liz herself is going to be, short of wanting to save her. But it was Kaplan's idea and Kaplan's plan - she thought it up and approached Liz with it, not the other way around,s o its Kaplan who is really the architect. I understand why Kaplan did it, but on the other hand, I still don't think she should have gone behind Red's back with something that substantial. It's almost like it was not her decision to make - though she thought it was and that it was the right one. We don't know whether Red had a contingency plan that he was processing. Maybe he didn't but his comment to Kaplan about her fancying herself a strategist and needing to know the boundaries of her own lane, were cutting, and revealing, I think, of his inner thoughts.

I wonder what will precede that scene in the field with Kaplan. What immediately before will prompt his action - if he found out something else or just had time to decide what to do. part of me thinks that if he really wanted her dead, he would have done so by now. I mean, up to when she got Agnes, she was dead weight, sort to speak, in Cuba - tagging along, staying in the car, not trusted to know or take part in his current plan. Her timing with trying to talk to Red was off too - he's prepping to confront Esteban and she comes in to talk to him. So she wasn't exactly an asset at that point.

I think, like some others of us do, that he remains conflicted by their history together up to now and that she is possibly family of some sort. i think if not for that she would be gone by now. I just don't think Liz factors into his thinking right now. Maybe that will be the thing that Kaplan says to him that saves her at the last minute. Just speculation of course.

DZ731 said...

Honey West 98 - About the 30 years, shouldn't Liz be at least 32 now. She celebrated her 31st birthday back in Season 2 in the Longevity Initiative. I'm wondering if Red took her when she was 2.

Honey West said...

I think that fits right in, DZ731 #101. If, indeed, Red did take her, it wasn't right after she was born. And perhaps, if what Kirk says is true, then that is what messed up his Navy career. And maybe made it easier to put him in his current position. If the fire happened when she was four then it was probably a result of her parent or parents trying to get her back. And it probably wasn't their first or only attempt. Had she already been taken to Sam or was that after the fire? That's also unknown. Just idle speculation, of course. LOL! Whatever answers they will be giving us won't tell us everything, because they might reveal too much about Red and then that's the end of the series.

But here we have Kirk telling Liz that her birth was a happy thing and they were happy as a family until Reddington took her away. Red told Liz that her mother was unhappy about her pregnancy but after she was born she loved her baby and was happy. He also told her that her father was, regrettably, the only man she ever really loved. That could still go either way as to which man he was talking about. They have been pretty good about writing things so they can still be interpreted more than one way.

So Kirk says that Red took away 26 years of him being able to be Masha's father and Red says he has been protecting himself for 30 years. 4 years is the difference between what they both said. Mr. Kaplan knew Liz as an infant, so she is involved from way back in the whole thing, too, somehow.

Oh, what a tangled web they weave!

lara1 said...

Honey West #102 and DZ731 - interesting stuff on the years. Something is up!

Didn't Kirk say like literally hours ago to Liz that he'd been waiting 25 years for "this moment"? At the time we all said, doesn't he mean 27 years (year of the fire) and some were puzzled at 25 years. Then some of us thought he was just generalizing and not being specific. but now he says 26 years (1990) which is very specific but equally doesn't really add up. That's the year after the fire and Liz would be 5 or 6, depending on when. But it is the year of whatever happened to Red/his family, the year he went AWOL and also that of Katarina's suicide - as far as what we know. Interesting. 25 or 26 years still doesn't equal the 27 years (since the fire), nor if Liz was taken as an infant, it should be more than 27 years......closer to Red's 30. That makes me wonder why 1990 and is there any connection to all these events (I don't know the answer, of course!).

In the second half of season 2 or in season 3 (I think it was season 2) Red threw out the 25 year timeline several times and I think some other character/s in the series did as well. I think that was in reference to his going underground. I noted it in one of my summer comments but can't remember exactly what it was.

So if that was in 2015, we are now toward the end of 2016, so then that's closer to 27 years. So is 30 years meant to be literal or again a generalization? I'm going to go with literal because Red is precise in his language. A year or two maybe but 3 or 4, I don't think he'd be that imprecise.

So I guess the question (or one of the questions, LOL!) is what those 4 years mean.

1986 was before his adventure in Kuwait with Harold (1989) which I sometimes thought was the start of , or related to, his troubles that piled on to culminate in 1the events of 1990. But maybe not.

So Red told Liz that the Soviet Union collapse was hard on her father and he took her (presumably away to the US?). There are those of us who had the idea that some of the dialogue and such on fire night seemed to be more Red than anyone else (including Constantin). Some of us also didn't think that the collapse of the Soviet Union was hard on/for Constantin - in fact he profited handsomely and it seems like that's when he started to make a large fortune in oil and mining.

So maybe Red did take Liz but then why? And is Kirk telling the whole truth? It may be based on truth, but different (like each of Red and his stories are kind of the flip side, or mirror image (!) of each other's). The one thing that has always puzzled me and kind of killed the "Red is father" theory for me is Red's statement to Liz that regrettably her father was the only man Katarina loved. It made it sound like it was Red's regret, i.e. that it was not him whom she loved. But maybe that regret was something else - like perhaps the regret of some pain that Red caused her or even his Hobson's choice (which we didn't know about at the time) (he also spoke last season about looking to the future as the past was too full of regret). Pure speculation of course!

Well that's enough rambling for now! Haven't reached any conclusions but maybe someone else will get some ideas from it.

DZ731 said...

I liked that we had a mirror in this episode. This whole kidnapping arc started back with Solomon Part I with the wedding looking glass, a reference to Alice Through the Looking Glass. This time we have the two-way mirror. But Liz is still in the Looking Glass world, despite both her and Red's desire for her to leave it. I wonder if the next episode will have any more references to a Looking Glass World.

Honey West said...

Well lara1 #103, that is very interesting about the time references and Red's normal precision. Or it could be the writers realizing that they needed to be clearer on the times since they had maybe not kept up with following their own timeline with previous lines uttered by the various characters. LOL! The painting of themselves into corners. it sounds like there is a temptation to write something really really good and not be too careful about the details in the name of a beautiful scene or line of dialogue. You never know, maybe a combination of those things. It is a very complex story.

Yes, Red's "As much as it pains me to say it, he was probably the only man she ever really loved" from Lady Ambrosia is similar to but different in many ways from Kirk's story of how things happened. They seem to be describing the same thing from their own point of view and for their own purposes. Each casts the other as the villain who took her away from her mother. The end of the Cold War was too hard for her father. Well, that could be either of them, actually. If Red was involved in some sort of intelligence operation that was ending, it could have been hard for him, too. The collapse of the Soviet Union could have been putting him in extreme danger, we don't know which side he may have really been working for and both sides might have had it in for him if he was exposed. There is always the possibility that if Kirk is telling the truth and there was an affair that maybe it was part of Red's operation and he didn't truly love Katarina, but she fell in love with him. Or vice versa. Either way she loved one of them. If it was Red, and he didn't really love her, then her love put them all in danger, which he regrets, maybe that was Red's Hobson's Choice to save one or the other since he couldn't save both of them when the USSR collapsed. So he chose the child, because maybe he thought she was his? In any case the danger was from the government collapse and the fire was just the means by which it affected them. Or maybe the fire was a coverup. or else they were two totally separate events that came from the same source.

Oh well, just some thoughts I had after "Esteban". I'm dying to know what role Kaplan played in all of this.

lara1 said...

Small observation:

Red calls Kirk, Constantin
Kirk calls Red, Raymond (and Reddington)

So in addition to us now knowing that Kirk really is Constantin, we also know now that Constantin, Katarina (through Cape May) and Dom all know Red as Raymond. That tells me that he really is Raymond Reddington or, if there is a cover identity or identity switch, it took place before Red got involved with those three people. I guess either is possible if Red only knew them as an adult; only the first option if Red grew up around them, I think. But who knows?

Honey West # 105 - hmmm. So I wonder if that was Red's Hobson's choice, taking the child and leaving the mother - but potentially to what fate? But then she followed whoever took Liz. Questions, questions!

Yes I am getting more and more intrigued by Kaplan's role - as I think further through what may have been happening and when, and since she was there when Liz was an infant - but where, and how.

DZ731 #104 - good tie in with the mirror. The mirror is a symbol, too,(of something), it comes up in various key points during the series. The ones I remember most are: (there are a few others I wrote down but don't have my notes):


1. Madeleine Pratt - Liz looking in the mirror in her red dress and Red comes down the stairs and looks across at her - both their images in the mirror. I think that was an important scene.
2. Solomon - the looking glass mirror - that curiously, I think, does not show Red's reflection when he comes to talk to Liz but I think (I could be wrong) shows Harold's and then Tom's images. (Equally you could not see the piano in the frames with Red, but could with Harold and Tom - who are actually sitting on the piano bench)
3. Cape May - the scene with Red looking in the mirror and talking to Katarina's reflection instead of turning around and talking to her
4. Esteban - the mirror scene. Powerful - kind of a culmination of all the other scenes that went before it.

Good imagery back to Alice through the looking glass. Also, all the smoke and mirrors and magic tricks? double identities? Its really interesting.....

Re-watching tonight.

DZ731 said...

lara1 - Red was in the looking glass at the wedding too. I liked your list of episodes with mirrors. Another I remembered was in The Troll Farmer when Red first sees Liz's blonde hair in a mirrored wall.

Here's a quote from Through the Looking Glass that may sum up what happened in Esteban.

“Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!”

Liz, Tom, and Red all did a lot of running in this episode but no one seemed to get anywhere with their efforts.

Also that beheading. Weren't they always shouting "Off with your head!" in Through the Looking Glass?

lara1 said...

Honey West - timeline thought of the evening: didn't Dom, in Artax, when he was mad at Red in that conversation where he was blaming Red for messing up, say something like, "30 years shot to hell, I could have spent all of that time just being her grandfather"?

So - combined with Red's 30 year comment - something else really bad happened 30 years ago, before the fire?

So - now do we have 3 events? 1986, 1989, and 1990? If so was 1989 and 1990 payback for whatever happened in 1986? Did they back out of Masha's life in 1986, not in 1989 like we thought? Was Dom referring to all of them, including Red, or only himself and Katarina? doesn't line up with fire night conversations....

But anyway, if so, the plot thickens. Unless the 30 years is a generalization. But it's been said twice now. AS against Kirks 25/26 years.....one possible explanation isn't that Kirk saw Liz after the others backed out, but that he (Kirk) was imprisoned or something during that time (1986-1990), and when he got out, Liz was already hidden away. If so he's not the one Liz shot. Unless the whole Kirk thing is a complete fabrication, and if so will Liz figure it out.

I hope that next week offers at least some (real) answers because I think this just got more complex. Like we needed more complexity.....LOL!

lara1 said...

DZ731 - thanks for that on Solomon (much as I obsess about the BL, I don't think I could watch the episode one more time - I think I watched thane 3-4 times already! LOL). It makes more sense, I think that Red did appear in the mirror. And of course The Trolll Farmer ! - I was wracking my brain for another major mirror scene - and that's where Red is completely taken aback because what we think is Liz's resemblance to her mother.

I really like your observations on the episode as compared with Through the Looking Glass.
And yeah, wasn't it the QUEEN who was always shouting that - off with their heads! And weren't playing cards involved - like guards or something that looked like playing cards? Another card game and royalty tie in , and beheading tie in, too. (I think the someone somewhere said that there is link with St. George and beheading and we have a couple of those in the series too.)

Wow, that's a great observation. Thanks for sharing it. :)

eastcoast said...

As far as the 30 years, I am still thinking what I said in #90 it is how long he has been in the spy business. I remember him telling Liz there were spies to run. Probably something to do with the building up to 2017.


The thing at this moment that is bugging me is in Cape May KR was
talking about him dying? Even if he was in an opium stooper, it is consistant with everything else.


So a few more good reasons to think Kirk is not her father are...

Red seamed aware of Kirk and his business and knew he was alive even saying he went into hiding in 2002.
He also seamed to know who was after her when he was talking to Hargrave.
She even said,'you know exactly who hired me'. She even callled him a caring person, (which I thought was really odd!) so maybe he is family to the dead man?

eastcoast said...

I am so glad BL is back on and we can all be in here throwing our wild thoughts around! lol

lara1 said...

DZ731 #107 - I just thought of some other connections to the storyline with Through the Looking Glass

In the fire memories, when Liz wanders out and walks down the hallway, she does that 2 or 3 times and there are various flashes of bright light. If you freeze those flashes (v hard to do), the hallway is slightly altered each time, it kind of gets smaller then bigger again, at one point Liz has to crouch down on her knees. That's like alice, eating or drinking, can't remember which, things that made her smaller, then larger as she tried to get through a doorway...

I remembered the playing card guards - the Queen (of hearts maybe?) has them painting the white roses in the garden red, because she didn't like white roses, or something like that. Reminds me of the red/white references to the two sides in the russian revolution.....

eastcoast #110 - good thought on the 30 years and it would tie in to the build up to 2017.

Cape May - I thought it was strange that when Katarina says that to Red, he kind of closes his eyes. hmmm

You know when Scottie had that conversation with Red, I immediately thought they were having a conversation about another event - fire night. Like Scottie was with the people who came to the house to get the fulcrum and/or Liz. But that was totally my take on it, and probably not what most people thought. But if you listen to the dialogue, it could be. But I probably just got the wrong impression.....

Honey West said...

I totally agree, eastcoast #111!

#110 - In Cape May do you mean where she says he's dead, has nothing left? I figured she meant just that, with Liz gone he had no reason to continue, no reason to live. Which seems to be true until he goes into avenger-mode. And even then he appears to be planning for it to be a last mission of sorts.

Earlier I was doing some yard work and had a little bit of thinking time as I worked. That's always a good time to just think, no interruptions. So I was still thinking about this Masha/Liz kidnapping thing. We know that Liz was originally taken away before fire night, because that was even said during the flashbacks. Fire night happened when people, along with Katarina, came to take her back. We haven't really been told how much time passed between those two events. Days, months, years? Unknown.

But what I was thinking about was Kirk's claim to have proof that he is Liz's father, while admitting to her that there was a time that he thought that maybe Red was her father, but he says he knows he is not. So, Kirk seems to believe himself to be her father. He has proof. My thought earlier was that what if his proof was planted to make him believe that he was her father but he is not. I think it is likely that when Katarina found that she was pregnant she was furious, but Constantin found out and she couldn't do anything about it without confirming his suspicion that perhaps he was not the father. This might explain why she didn't end her pregnancy, because he was so happy about it. He probably did not even know about her affair at that time. Eventually when he found out he started to wonder about the baby's paternity. DNA testing was developed in the '70's and 80's so it would have been possible for him to find out for certain. It's possible that the tests were switched. Somebody probably had the means to have that done, thus convincing him that he was Liz's true father. Another thing that is interesting, and I'm not sure it plays in any way here, is that Red's blood type is B- and Kirk's is B+. Maybe that made the switch easier, if it even occurred. So Kirk would be convinced that he is Masha's father. It sure would help to make Liz's paternity "complicated", I think. Maybe having Kirk as her father kept her safe for a time, but something changed and Red had to come get her. Couldn't get both of them. Had to choose. Maybe we will even find out the truth eventually! LOL! I am thinking that Dom knows the truth.

lara1 said...

Some minor observations on the episode:

Themes/symbols seen through the series

- the mirror - discussed above - also link with alice in wonderland - the queen, playing cards etc.. and links with symbols in fire night, Also - Esteban's mirrored glasses

-the piano ! (enough said, lol!). but interesting that this one is different in appearance to all the others

-playing cards - mirror link as above; the cops gambling when Red walks in

- another house by the water, a beach

- Kirk takes Liz away in a "sea" plane

- art - Ressler meets with someone from the Arts and Culture council (I think)

I haven't yet caught any dialogue except:

Esteban: "Every environment has its own acoustical signature."

Red (to Harold/Panabaker?) - Esteban works for "your" government

more later - Honey West liked your #113. That might make Solomon's swabbing the blood back in Season 3 and Red's sample hunt more possible.....

eastcoast said...

Honey west, #113,

I am talking about when her and Red are laying by the fireplace. She said it wasnt how he died, but the things she said to him before he died.

Honey West said...

Oh yes, eastcoast #115. That conversation is still a mystery to me. If it's Red having the whole conversation then what and who is he talking about. There's even more to it in the deleted/extended scenes on the blu-rays. I need to watch that again. I was sort of thinking that he was thinking about his last conversations with Liz, which except for her very "last" words were not especially friendly. But that is an odd conversation for sure, especially if Red knew all along that Rostov was still alive. I haven't figured that one out yet. Worth thinking about, though.

DZ731 said...

lara1 1114 - Those are some great observations on ongoing themes and symbols!

eastcoast - Katarina could have still been talking about Red, if he was the one she was arguing with on fire night. Like Honey West, I think it reflects Red's own sadness that he and Liz had been at odds on the day she died.

Honey West - I think there may have been some switching of DNA samples at play. Also, if these journals of Katarina's that are coming up in future eps are part of his proof, she may have written them for the express purpose of misleading Constantine. How can we ever trust any of this info? I do think Dom knows some of the truth, but even he may not know all of it.

lara1 said...

More observations and Comparisons with Pilot

First of all, I love love love how they used the mirror imagery and took it a cool step further than how they've used it before. Two way mirror, two huge adversaries (perhaps both with two identities) on either sides of the mirror, dividing them. That was a great scene.

I'm picking up some similarities to the pilot. And the use or the "mirror" approach - same image, in reverse...

Here we have Liz, once again confronted by a stranger who wants to get to know her - again kind of mirror images of the other - only this time instead of cryptic non answers, Kirk is providing almost too much information at once! Instead of giving her riddles, he is telling her the answers (or so it is portrayed...)

Kirk and Red - I really like the way each of their stories is the mirror image of the other's - same story, kind of in reverse.

Tom - Kirk's pursuit of Tom is like Red getting Zamani to attack Tom in the pilot - I don't think Tom was meant to survive that but he did (Tom is like the cat with nine lives!). (So again I ask, what is it about Tom that neither of these men like?!) So if Kirk starts saying to Liz, "Be careful of your husband, Masha....." LOL!

The car crash at the end - someone mentioned that its like the crash in the pilot where they kidnap the generals daughter - so true!

A brand new person dealing with Red's list firsthand (Panabaker)

There might be more, but those are the things that leapt out at me....

lara1 said...

east coast #115 and Honey West # 116 - that scene is Cape May was the most perplexing of all to me. Is it Red's image of Katerina that is speaking, or Red? I know that in the blue ray its over layered with the last scene between Red and Liz, so in his mind he's comparing the two.

But I think it is Katarina person speaking about Liz's father. - either Red remembering it or projecting it onto her. In the blue ray, Honey West, if you recall, the longer dialogue includes her talking about how they loved each other so much, and then everything at the end went wrong and happened so fast, and then - its not that he died but its what I said to him before he died. I'm thinking that is whoever died fire night (whether shot or killed by the fire) but I think it can't be Constantin because he didn't die and Red knows Kirk is Constantin and is alive. but then who is it - more questions!

Also I never know when they cut filmed dialogue out of an episode which of it is to simply to edit the scene for time, and which they decide not to show for other reasons (like when they changed the end for Fitch in The Decembrist.)

The other curious piece of cut dialogue in the blue ray is when Red is talking to Tom about how he has to start to be a responsible parent and not "I spy" anymore....and Red says that he (Red) was empowered in his life by the fact that no matter what situation he got into, it didn't matter if he ever "came back". He then says to Tom, "you don't have that power, you have a child" or something like that. But that didn't make sense because even if Liz is not his child, Red still took responsibility for her (though she was in the capable hands of Sam). Unless it was meant to tell us, again, that Red's "real" daughter had truly died....it kind of mirrored Red's comment to Liz in Season 3, something like, What is your life without a child. From personal experience, I can tell you, not much.

Anyway, I concluded that "Katerina" by the fireplace was talking about whichever man was shot on fire night, and died, or she thought he died. Just my own thoughts. But even so we still don't know who that is yet. sorry rambled on a bit there. sitting outside and the fresh air has invigorated me! LOL

Honey West said...

Totally agree on all points, lara1 #119. The only thing I can think of is that with the Cape May dialogue, Red is still under the influence and much of that is hallucination and is probably as suspect as Liz's flashbacks in Luther Braxton 2, since those were also drug-induced. But, we shall see. Even if it turns out that Red really is her father, I am sure his true motivations for what he's done will remain unclear because it would reveal too much about him.

DZ731 said...

lara1 - Another parallel with the pilot and this episode is a blacklister who faked his death. In both episodes, the FBI database says the blacklister is dead. Of course, faked deaths are a major theme throughout the series. How many faked deaths does this make now? LOL

Additionally both the pilot and Esteban have kidnappers who are dying. Both Zamani and Rostov were extremely dangerous because, with their terminal illnesses, they have nothing to lose.

Also both Zamani and Rostov wanted Tom dead. But, as we know, that smooth operator has at least nine lives. At my last count, he's used six of those. Zamani wanted revenge for the loss of his family. Does Constantin? Did Red all those years ago when he took Liz?

Finally, another thematic symbol through out the series is scarring. Both Esteban and Manny had extensive scarring on their faces.

Debra

Tatiana said...

The line, "You were never meant to raise her" or something to that effect, from Red to Constantin, keeps running through my mind.

Why was Constantin Rostov never meant to raise his own daughter?

Ok, we'll assume that Constantin is not Liz/Masha's father for a moment. But he was married to Liz's mother, so it would be assumed he is her father.

Also, the line, "unlike you, I would never harm my daughter" is Constantin referring to the burn marks on Liz's arm?

My husband suggested that maybe there really are two Liz's/Masha's. Has that been suggested before?

The double identity theme is rampant: Elizabeth/Masha; Alexander/Constantin; Tom/Jakob (and multiple identities);

Tatiana said...

Debra - you're right! The parallels, whether intended or not, are prominent.

I felt the same sudden horror at the car crash in this episode as I did in the pilot and it immediately brought me back there. Good draw to the parallels.

lara1 said...

DZ731 #121 - yes, good observations.! And - there have been so many fake deaths in the series, that I forgot to look out for that, LOL! I'll have to add it to the every growing list.....the other interesting thing about both Zamani and Esteban is that not only are they supposed to be "dead", the FBI files on them are wrong. Makes me think of the file on Red. I think at least part of that is fabrication - but that is just my opinion, nothing has actually pointed us there. I do think it strange though that the file is so thin - and we haven't seen a photo of his graduation from the naval academy for example. No photos of him at all in that file except for the one when he was on the run....but I digress! (easily done! LOL)

Like that you picked up on the scarring. So we have Red, Esteban, Manny, Ressler, Liz, the Stewmaker, Josephine (on her wrist, I think - reminded me of Liz), Anslo Garrick,Harold (minor but after his surgery when Berlins guys tried to kill him), the blacklister with the missing nose (forgot who that was). Did Berlin also have scars? there are probably others, those are he ones that come to mind.

Tatiana #122 - Yes the line about "she was never yours to raise" made my ears jump off my head! Haha. What does it mean?

There is a tiny difference in the other line, I think Kirk said, "unlike you, I would never harm my "own" daughter" which could be loaded with double meanings - none of which we know of course!!

I have thought for a while that there are two girls. Either two Lizzies, two Mashas, I also now think that there were two different girls in the closet in fire night memory. Whether they were literally in the house on fire night, or just appearing in Liz's subconscious, I don't know. For a long time I put it (the 2 girls in the memory) down to artistic effect but now I think there were actually two. The bright flashes of light in the memory made young Liz look almost blond right before she then turns brunette and opens her eyes in the first memory recall in Braxton, as well as at other times. Then there is that mysterious "other" girl that can be seen in the closet for literally a split second in one scene. She's not adult Liz nor young Liz....unless I am really seeing things....

I don't know who the other girl is/was, and I keep trying to work out that there is a connection between Liz and Red's "real" daughter, but I can't figure it out.....

Honey West # 120 - yes, I agree. Especially since over their dinner of superb risotto, when Red asks mystery woman to talk about the argument she mentioned, she just says something like, "I was out of my mind. There was no one". Which on its own I don't understand but that doesn't bug me too much. Its the fireside chat that has me continually perplexed.....LOL

Only 4 days till episode 2! yay

lara1 said...

My favorite things about the episode:

-the scenes between Red and Agnes - the baby and James have great screen chemistry! could those scenes have been more perfect?

- the bulletproof mirror scene

- Red imaging what happened at the villa

- Red walking through the club in the beginning. That's one of my favorite camera shots of him in the entire series, i think

- Red's discussion with Ressler, and sending him packing

-Red's words to Kaplan as he beheads the dead guy (yes it was very harsh, but at the same time, very real and very Red and got us to quickly know what he was thinking)

- Liz using her training and being mean

- the pace of the entire episode - hit the ground running and never stopped!

Lake Girl said...

Chomps, I'm so sorry to hear about Mr.C! Glad to hear he's doing ok. We'll keep y'all in our prayers.
Things have been crazy here, but I got a few minutes free to pop on and read some comments. The episode was phenomenal! Love the tough, momma bear Lizzie. Hope she's here to stay. I'm not wanting Tom's character to leave the show. And of course Spader portrayed every emotion perfectly. I agree that the one black mark was having Agnes in the middle of so much fighting.
My sinus medicine won't let me form many coherent thoughts, but the group seems to be on the ball with the thinking thing. Going back to read everyone's pearls of wisdom ;)

lara1 said...

Honey West # 113 - re-read your post. Interesting and plausible.

Other thoughts on this:
To me, the only incontrovertible proof that Kirk could show Liz would be DNA/paternity testing. I don't think anything else would do it. Even something like Katarina's journal could be mis-leading, if she were trying to hide the truth for Liz's sake.

When I re-watched the episode, I noticed that Kirk seems genuinely fond of Agnes. Unless its all an act, but it seemed a genuine response to me. So maybe he really does believe that he is Liz's father. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have an agenda, though. If it is all an act, he could manipulate a DNA test to "show" that he is Liz's father, I suppose....

I keep coming back to Red's reaction though. He is so desperate to get Liz back from Kirk, so certain that she is in grave danger. So, Red knows something that we do not.

The other thing to remember is that, according to Red, Katarina gave up Liz to be raised by someone else (did she mean Red or Sam?) because she (Katarina) was a danger to her (Liz). So I still think that there is something fundamental Kirk wants from Liz and I think she is in danger whether or not he gets it.

Some of the previews showed a "journal" of Katarina's. that will be interesting. Is it real? maybe. But it does seem a little strange to me that a mata-Hari type super spy would actually keep a journal that others could find and potentially exploit. Still, maybe the content are vanilla enough. But that's also why I don't think it would be reliable in terms of Liz/Kirk. If the truth were other than what Kirk believed, I doubt she would write it in a journal for him to possibly find. And wasn't Liz kept a secret in a way - wasn't she just a rumor, that no one could verify? Velov was interrogated by multiple sources who did not know, nor did he. Why would Katarina therefore write about her?

Will be very interesting to see what happens next week.

DZ731 said...

Lake Girl - So glad to see you back and posting. I'm on allergy meds this time of year too, so I know what you mean. I like the momma bear Liz too. Megan Boone said the character would be a stronger person this season and would be using her superpower of profiling more pominently.

lara1 - I agree Spader and the baby actress have amazing chemistry. Now who makes the better grandpa - Red with his touchy feely play or Constantin with his keys? You know, I didn't notice how fantastic that nightclub scene was as I watched the episode. But seeing it posted on several websites afterward, I realized how artisticly it was filmed. It captures Red on a mission so well!
Also agree with you on the pacing.

lara1 said...

BBB #73 - I thought about your comments on Kaplan when I re-watched the episode. I noticed a few things:

1. In the cafe, Kaplan goes in to talk to Red about Liz when he's in the middle of delicate discussions with Esteban. I thought that was really odd judgment on her part. But now I think, did she do it on purpose? To get in the same room when Red is having that meeting. Red then tells her to go wait in the car. At first I thought he was just being dismissive of her - but now I think he also didn't want her to stick around during his discussions. then when Kaplan goes to leave the cafe, Esteban returns to Red and they are discussing how to get to Kirk and next steps. Kaplan stops and waits to overhear what they are saying. That to me was also a bit odd. Hmmmm. Did she tip off Kirk's man? Probably not, but its an interesting theory.

2. Where did Kaplan get the gun when she took the baby from Romina? When I first watched the episode, I didn't even think Kaplan had a gun. On the second watch, I saw why - I blinked and missed it. What I mean is, when Kaplan walks through the house and when she confronts Romina, she is not carrying a gun. There is no gun in sight. She's wearing a skirt and jacket with no pockets. We then see a close up of the gun for a few seconds, we don't even see who is holding it (though who else would it be?). I just thought that was odd.

3. the scene after the car crash is really odd too. Is Mato making a zipping motion, is he gesturing a sarcastic kiss in some way? Its just odd, though he is a totally creepy character so it can mean anything.

Just some of my observations I thought you might like to read.

Honey West said...

Busy day! Finally a moment to sit down and read.

lara1 #127, I think the DNA testing and switch was done when Liz was a baby and after Rostov found out about the alleged affair. It was meant to make him believe that he was Masha's father. If he had believed otherwise it probably wouldn't have been very good for anyone involved. Red was so desperate to get Liz away from him because if he truly needs her for something related to his blood disorder and she needs to be a good genetic match, as his daughter would be, any tests would prove that she was not his daughter. Kirk would probably kill her, since he would have no use for her and after all she wasn't even his daughter but probably the daughter of his rival. So Red doesn't want him to discover the truth and needs to get her back pronto, before he finds out. Meanwhile, Red's only other chance would be to perpetuate the deception by switching out either the blood samples or the new DNA test results. Either way, the success would depend on the two samples proving the two donors were related.
I think what Red knows is that Kirk is definitely not her father. And that is extremely dangerous for Liz and Agnes.

"No, because she was never yours to raise." was what Red said. All I could think of was that Red was saying that Kirk was not her father and he knew this - how? But wasn't that kind of dangerous for him to say that as long as Kirk still had Liz?

lara1 said...

hi Honey West # 130 - what you say is very plausible. I'm tending to think that way too. although I don't think he's the best father if he never looked for her until now - even Berlin was able to find Red through Liz, and Kirk seems to be more powerful and have a lot more resources. So I wonder how much of his story is true - or is he leaving out important parts of it.

Yes I'm puzzled by why Red said that if he thinks Liz is in so much danger. Unless he thinks Kirk gave up his rights to have her with him, for some reason, that Kirk would also know.

Three days to go!

Charmed said...

DZ #121, lara1 #121 etc.

Scars? Oh yeah.

Dembe has major scarring. Tom had scars that disappeared. TPTB had to rethink the sexy, shirtless scenes!
Naomi had scarring from the loss of her finger.

Those just popped in my mind as soon as I read your comments.
Go ladies!

lara1 said...

Charmed #132 - oh yes. Then there's Leonard Caul who also lost a finger, and maybe one of the creepiest of all, The Courier who had all those scars and things imbedded.


Charmed said...

lara1

How did I ever forget the Courier, Tommy. He was a kidnapper too. Tommy could feel no pain. There's probably a dozen more.

DZ731 said...

Tatiana #122 and 123 - Thanks for noting the car crash parallel to the pilot. That's what got me thinking about all the other similarities. And as for two Lizzies/Mashas, I have proposed that before, in two different ways. To me there seem to be two girls in the fire night memories. Not many people agree with me on that. And another theory I've proposed is that Red's daughter who died was named Elizabeth, and Liz/Masha is the replacement child.

lara1 said...

DZ731 #135 - I think there are 2 girls in the fire night memories but I cannot decide whether they were both in fire house at the time of the fire, or whether Liz's subconscious was remembering another girl who had been around. And the other question is, who was she and what happened to her?

I also really like your idea of two Lizzies,with Liz being the kind of replacement for Red's daughter. It really got me thinking over the summer! In the Caretaker, the caretaker "takes" his daughter after his own wife and child were killed, and he sees the little girl with an abusive father....

I also got to wondering whether Liz accidentally started the fire when she ran away from the gun she shot. We know she likes candles, and there were so many candles in Cape May; and then there was the fire she accidentally started in her kitchen in Lady Ambrosia. But some of the other theories out there make sense too...

It will be interesting to see whether the house Kirk takes Liz too resembles fire house. Bur then, fire house seemed to be where she was living after she was abducted.....

Eastcoast said...



Enjoying all the pondering on here!!

Lara, #129,

I thought Kaplan always has a gun on her side, I think that's why she wears those jackets.
I just did a rewatch of that part and it does look like her suit to me behind the gun. Its the same color.

It was however a confusing part, because it seamed like Dembe was fighting at the bottom of the stairs when she came in?

When Red meets Esteban, She does stop to listen but she only hears that they have a location on the girl and then goes out the door.

Mato is a really creepy guy!
She looked woozy to me. I thought he was saying be quiet because he saw her waking up and he was being a jerk at the same time.


Honey west, #130,

That was my thought on the DNA.
It was a bold statement for Red to make to him that she wasnt his to raise.
But maybe he felt comfortable saying it because he knows Kirk thinks he has proof that he is her father.

Here is a wild theory....

What if Kirk gets blood from Liz and starts having a reaction to it and only when he is dying he realizes Red got over on him?
As a B+he can have B+ &-,and o+&-.
Cant have A anything.
I dont know what hers is?

lara1 said...

hi Eastcoast. having a bit of insomnia so checking in on here.

You are probably right about Kaplan, it was just odd to me that she didn't have her gun in her hand when she walked through the house. Nor one of her famous handbags (where she sometimes keeps a gun), LOL! thinking of all possibilities....

I don't think we were ever told Liz's blood type. I looked really hard during the hospital scenes with Agnes also and they never showed that either.

Yet we know Kirk and Red's blood type as clear as day. May or may not be intentional with Red (could be more that he bonded with Ressler and could have that intense blood transfusion scene back in Season 1 - I remember thinking - wow Red really had to have field experience if he could just whip us a makeshift blood transfusion like that!!!) but Kirk I think was shown to us for a reason. They could have shown the transfusions without needing closeups of the actual blood/plasma bags and the blood type on them. So I do feel also that something may be ups with that.

lara1 said...

So I am thinking about what Kirk said - that Red took Liz and he "never saw her again" or words like that.

So - does that mean then that he (Constantin) was not there on fire nigh? And that he therefore could not have been the person Liz shot? (I'm already more or less in the Kirk is not Daddy camp).

IF that's the case it begs the question of who Liz shot. We know two men were fighting at the window. One of those men I think was Red. But who was the other one?

It makes me go back to the theory that some of us have had that it was really Red whom Liz shot that night. I think it was Red trying to wrestle a gun from Katarina (but not hurt her, though a child could interpret it as that).

In the fire memory you can hear someone say what sounds like, Ray, get away, I've got a gun, though the voice isn't very clear. But I think that whomever Liz shot, says "Lizzie" afterwards and you can hear a woman call "Masha".

But more perplexing to me now is that if Constantin was not the other man in the window (which I've kind of thought since his character was introduced) who the heck was it. Back to square one...

Or - is Constantin lying about that part of his story?

Tatiana said...

Lara - in light of this last episode, I went back to the fire night dialogue. I've always believed the people Liz remembers and who she remembers saying what is incorrect. I switched the lines from woman to man and man to woman. Then I tried the man's voice as either Red or as Constantin. It makes sense if it's Constantin especially since he calls Liz Masha. What do you think:

Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Where is she?
Katerina: You shouldn’t be here. You can’t… (garbled)
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): I’m not leaving without Masha.
Katerina: Her name is Elizabeth.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father) (calling): Masha!
Katerina: She’s not going back with you.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): You can’t take her… (garbled)
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): (garbled) …feel is for him.
Katerina: You wouldn’t let me see her.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father) (calling): Masha!
Katerina: Get out. Now!
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Get your hands off me!
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Did you think you could get away with it?
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): I wouldn’t find you?
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): I wouldn’t find you?
Lizzie (yells what the man (Red/Kirk/Father) says to Katerina): Where is she?
Katerina: Okay. You’re not here for her.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Listen, you’re in trouble.
Katerina: Because of you.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Yes.
Katerina: You told them.
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): Yes, I did. I told them.
Katerina (to Masha in drawn-out voice): “Stay here. Don’t go anywhere.”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “It was my job.”
Katerina: “It was your job? To spy on me?”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “Yes, yes. No, I didn’t want to. I-I tried to protect you.”
Katerina: “Is that what you call it?”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “Did they threaten Masha?”
Katerina: “That’s what I just…” (garbled)
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “…because I love you.”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “They’ll kill you if you don’t give it back.”
Katerina: “They’ll kill me if I do!”
Katerina: “She’s not here.”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “Did you really think I’d let this happen? That I wouldn’t come for her?”
Katerina: “Hey!”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “That I wouldn’t find you?”
Katerina: “Get away from there! It’s not here.”
Katerina: (garbled) “…is the only thing keeping me alive. Who the hell are they?”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father) (giving orders to unknown people): “Split up. Start with the basement; the attic…”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father) (giving orders to unknown people): “Take it apart comb every…” (garbled).
Katerina (to man (Red/Kirk/Father) or someone else in the room): “It’s not here!” (garbled)
Liz (hyperventilating mimics someone’s voice : “Let me go! Get away from me!”
Katerina: (garbled) “…not here.”
Katerina: “You’re not taking her!”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “Are you crazy?”
Man (Red/Kirk/Father): “Stop!”
Katerina: “…double…” (garbled, sounded like agent!)
Man (Red/Kirk/Father) (most likely to Masha): “Get away! Right now!”
(As Masha screams) Man (Red/Kirk/Father): (garbled) “…let go ah!” (Gasps as sound of gunshot is heard)

Honey West said...

You know, Eastcoast #137, it occurred to me today that it was odd that Kaplan had a gun. if Red wasn't trusting her to cut off that guy's head, how did she still have a gun? Unless she picked one up or Dembe gave her one? That doesn't make sense that she still had one.

Not sure about whether the blood type is important for him re: Liz. I think he needs something more like a stem cell or bone marrow transplant. Somehow his body is not making new red blood cells, which suggests a bone marrow problem such as leukemia. In that case it needs to be more than just the same blood type. He can get B+ blood from any donor and it doesn't need to be a relative. So a DNA test that showed he was not really her father could be pretty dangerous for her as he wouldn't need her and would realize that he'd been lied to many years ago. Red needs to get her away from him before that happens or else find a way to do another sample switch so the ruse is continued. If Kirk dies because of the bad match if they get to that point, well, that's too bad. Might be how they get rid of him.

I've thought for a long time that Red was who she shot, if she really shot anyone the night of the fire. That scene in the diner when she pointed the gun at him pretty much confirmed it for me. He'd seen that before.

Crazy idea of the day - what if the woman there on fire night wasn't Katarina. What if it was Kate Kaplan? Sent to get the Fulcrum. Well, you never know! LOL!

lara1 said...

Tatiana # 140 - thanks for pasting in all of that fire night dialog.....it is really interesting to read that dialog reversed now, substituting for maybe Kirk. Now that we think it was Red who took Liz and that previously Katarina had followed and had come for her, it would make sense if Kirk then somehow later found out where they were and came for them, too, on fire night. It would also then make sense that he doesn't know where the fulcrum was and that Katarina was the one who perhaps sewed it into the bunny. (And maybe knew to carry out the bunny from he fire.....)

When Liz said to Red in Season 3, something like, is that what they were fighting about the night of the fire? , after Red says that her father took her (Liz) Red answers indirectly. That is, he never says yes. He just says, despite all that he had done, she still wanted them to be a family.

So its very possible.

In the fire memories, when Liz is talking to Red afterwards, she asked him if he and the other men came that night for the fulcrum. He never answered her directly, saying something like, its not that simple. Who knows what he meant? but he did confirm to Liz that he was there (in what capacity, we don't yet know).

Really interesting!

Honey West #141 - I thought the same thing about Kaplan and the gun. Like why would Red have let her have one? And she clearly wasn't holding one while she was walking through the house. So did she have it concealed, or did someone else give it to her, or did someone else have it (though I agree with Eastcoast that it does look like Kaplan's clothes in the background when the gun is held)

Aso - re fire night, I've always found it interesting that in all of Liz's memories, she never says that her mother was there. She says, my father - he was there. she calls out for Daddy. Then she knows that some men came to the house. There's clearly a woman there too, in the scene where someone blocks her from going into the room where the men are fighting, yet she doesn't seem to recognize her or remember that on waking......And we don't see a woman again until she shoots Connolly and then she says her father was hitting her mother. interesting.

lara1 said...

just posed something on the red/Liz theories page based on a news report I saw just now. Sort of works into one of my theories on Red/Liz connection. Wild theory, but still......

Tatiana said...

Honey West - My husband insists that somehow Kate/Katerina are another double identity. Was she mother? Was she nanny? What was she to Elizabeth? There's something there we don't know. And I agree, I think Kate may very well have something to do with that night.

Tatiana said...

#141 Honey - I also completely agree re: Liz shooting Red the night of the fire. I've thought that for quite some time now. So it's interesting that you bring it up as well.

Honey West said...

Haha! Great minds think alike, Tatiana!

lara1 said...

Tatiana - interesting on Katarina. She probably had a bunch of aliases (like Red does for instance), but did she have a sort of full blown double identity? interesting thought.

Tatiana and Honey West - I've also thought at various times that it was Red who was shot on fire night. For me, I felt that there was something deeper in that conversation with Liz at the end of Season 2, when she describes what she remembers after shooting Connolly. Red looks on, obviously distraught that she has remembered, but I think he was also a bit relieved that she didn't remember everything. Like there was another layer missing. He never actually said yes to her shooting her father, only to what she said after that. Honey West, I also think the diner scene was telling in some way about it.

So now I'm back to thinking that again. I guess we should watch very closely for any bullet wound scars - LOL!

DZ731 said...

Count me in the club that thinks Liz shot Red the night of the fire. The image of the man on the floor in the fire memory looked like Red to me. I also think that's the reason for the gun pointing scene in the diner.

Lake Girl said...

Is there room for one more in the Liz shot Red club?
That thought has been rolling around my head since I rewatched season three over the summer.
Lara1, I promise to look very closely for any bullet wound scars ;)

lara1 said...

Small observation. When Liz and Agnes are in the bedroom of the villa, and Kirk comes to talk to them, there is a mirror on the wall behind Liz. When Kirk first enters and talks to Liz, you can only see him talking to her through his reflection in the mirror...hmmm. When he comes back to get them for the plane, when he knocks on the door, he does call Liz "Elizabeth". Interesting. But maybe he just changed it because she clearly did not want to be called Masha.

lara1 said...

Liz shot Red - I just had another thought on this. Suppose Liz did shoot Red, and he is the one who "stayed dead", i.e. faked his death. Uses the opportunity to get away from his enemies. I know that some of us (I think Honey West included) have had a theory that whoever was shot on fire night survived and perhaps then faked their death that way.

Red did say that the person who asked Sam to take care of Liz was in danger, and going away 'for a while". So suppose Red did fake his death? it does kind of coincide with when he goes missing. That year 1989-1990 needs to be accounted for, but if Red had bad back burns he would have been out of commission for part of that anyway. And the date and events of his "disappearance" could be fabricated. Like, he disappeared before that but something happened a bit later on. And maybe his fake death caused a chain of events as yet unknown to us, for which he also feels guilty. Maybe they went after his family because of that. who knows.

Kaplan said a somewhat odd phrase to Red in the Cafe in Episode 1. (well odd to me at least!). She said to him, yes I betrayed you but only after you betrayed her. I wonder what that means? Is she reflecting back to a similar scenario years ago when Red faked his death? Or, she could just mean more recent events where Red could not protect Liz. I think betrayal is an odd choice of word for that though.

Im thinking about that dialog with Katarina in Cape May about why someone would kill themselves and some of us have thought that all of the conversations there were Red with himself. Interesting. And I guess part of it depends on whether Red really is Liz's father if he really is speaking to himself (My child is being raised by someone else" - if that is Red and not Katarina speaking there - it could be both). It raises a lot of questions but interesting to ponder.



The plot continues.....!

DZ731 said...

lara1 #151 - I thought Kaplan's line about Red betraying Liz referred to the pact Dom, Red, and others had made to stay out of her life to keep her safe. Red's desire to know her caused Liz to repeatedly be involved in violence and danger.

lara1 said...

DZ731 # 152 - that makes sense, especially in view of what she said to him in the season 3 finale and when she then says to him in the cafe that he has to let her go.

I really think that we will get some mythology in tomorrow's episode, I hope so!

lara1 said...

New observation on fire night: with our discussion here I went back to look at some of the still photos of Liz's memory in Connolly of shooting her "father". Something which was fairly obvious but which I never really noticed before is the difference in height between the man and the woman struggling in front of the window. Either the man is very tall, or the woman is short, as the woman seems to only be as tall as the man's shoulder.

It doesn't really solve anything, but another piece of the puzzle. A tall man and short woman were there that night, not necessarily as the two people in front of the window (as the memories are messed up). (I know of one woman who fits that description though, LOL)

Also, the way that Red said through the 2 way mirror in the premiere: Elizabeth, I will come for you. I will come for you - and her response. Reminded me of the "Elizabeth, we have to go" comment in the church wedding and how it seemed to provoke something in Liz. So I am thinking that either Red did take Liz, - or Constantin took her away/took her back and Red came for her. Today's theory, anyway!

Tatiana said...

That theory fills in some questions like, how did Red get out of the fire with those kind of burns if he was the one who lead Lizzie out by the hand that night?

Bonnie said...

Just some thoughts on Masha/Liz's early childhood and the house she was in. There have been documented accounts of children in the USSR being trained from infancy to ultimately become "double agents" in the US. Maybe Katarina agreed to having one of the first test tube babies with super genes contributed by Constantin and Reddington and then gave the child up to be trained as a super spy..only to have second thoughts after the baby was born. When Liz was conceived, there already was genetic manipulation experiments being conducted.

There were entire towns constructed in Russia so these children would be raised as though they were American, but with Russian ideologies. The movie Salt dealt with this. Also recently read book about a young ballerina who became a Russian spy, fell in love with an American spy and became a double agent...

Honey West said...

Interesting, Bonnie #156. I wouldn't put it past them to have something like that as part of the backstory.

And, YAY! A new discussion page will be born later today! Because. It's. Thursday!

Iowa Watcher said...

Bonnie, thanks! I will rent the movie Salt when I have a chance. It sound really good!

DZ731 said...

Bonnie - Thanks for your post. Interesting info. I did not know the movie Salt was related to Russian spies. I'll try to watch it.

If Liz/Masha was created to be one of these super soldier spies she likely would have been raised by others in one of these "American towns." Maybe that's what Red meant by his comment to Constantin, "She was never yours to raise."

Anyway I'm looking forward to learning more about Liz's twisted past in tonight's episode. Happy Blacklist Day!

Tabasko said...

The discussion page for tonight's episode is now available:

The Blacklist - "Mato #66" Episode 4.2 Discussion